This is a discussion on Community spirit - "Off Topic" within the Priston Tale forums, part of the MMO and MMORPG Developments category; ...
OT @bobsobol post
I don't like Mac ideas; e.g. mouse with one button, can't use your 2nd skill in PT lol; they also like stupid patents
They must be patent trolls XD
OFC this paten was rejected in Europe because it was to obvious way, but not in USA...
Also for Mac price I have 4 times 'stronger' PC/laptop lol
Last edited by bobsobol; 15-07-12 at 09:43 PM.
That is the most incredible display of ignorance. But I hear it often. Mac OS supported 2 mouse buttons before Windows did. Apple just didn't make *mice* with more than one button until early 200x. How long did you keep the mouse that came with your PC?Originally Posted by Vormav;7118416@
The first Mac I got to use was a Mac Classic II running System 7.2 (IIRC) on a 68000 / 68010 with 4Meg of RAM. (remember, 8-Bit computing in the UK was dominated by domestic manufacturers, Acorn, Sinclair and Amstrad, in 16-bit we still tended more to Acorn, Atari and Commodore, even in business) This Classic II had 2 mouse buttons and you used the second for context menus as you do in current Windows systems. (equivalent to a Ctrl Click, but it requires a less precise, less useful Menu key with no click on Windows if the button breaks) It wasn't an Apple Mouse.
I emulated a system 6 Mac, and installed Excel. The right mouse button worked just fine, and Control Click simulated it if your secondary button was broke, or you hadn't replaced you "Apple" mouse yet.
At that time, the right mouse button was not used in Windows 3.0 (the latest, hot off the press from Microsoft) except in MSPaint, which was a complete rip off down to the tool palette, menu options and most functionality, of Mac Paint. GEM 3 from Digital Research (the more common desktop OS for PCs at the time) didn't make much use of the right button either. At least GEM Paint had it's own feel.
Only Amiga and Acorn desktops made as much use of the second mouse button, and the Acorn needed a third to allow any menu to be displayed. (Primary, Menu, Secondary)
Nobody had heard of a scroll wheel, but MacOS 8 used 3 buttons and a wheel just like Windows, only it did it nicer. Like the Middle button and Scroll wheel, a second button is not, and should no be necessary to work the actual OS.
Apple Macs have shipped with a two-way mouse since... Lion / Leopard? ish? At least 2 digital controls is the expected norm by then anyway. Originally dubbed "Mighty Mouse", it has no "buttons" and a track-ball in the middle for scrolling in either direction. The entire mouse rocks at the front to the left for primary click and to the right for secondary click. A bit like a small digital joystick. I think the ball clicks as a middle button on some Apple mice too. It's quite intuitive and doesn't "feel" much different to "buttons" except the puck retains a sturdy rigidity beneath your hand. I found myself lifting the bottom as much as depressing the tip too. But it's not unnatural.
I also think most sane people still chuck the Apple mouse, (not coz of the "rocking" but because it's the wrong shape, and too glossy) and if possible, get a "proper" separate screen. Many people chuck the keyboard too. Any USB keyboard works, it's just confusing that the clover leaf key has a context menu symbol on a Windows keyboard, the Option key is marked Ctrl and the Control key is marked Alt. There are also Windows logos on the Apple keys, and no indication of which is hollow Apple and which is solid Apple. But Linux calls these keys different things too, and you can get a Linux keyboard with Tux keys and Accel keys printed on it... but who cares? A keyboard is a keyboard... right? Not many PC keyboards have USB hubs in them like the Apple ones either, and that's handy. Many branded IBM ones do and I like to use those to replace an Apple Keyboard cheaply.
I agree about the Patents, and you can slag off Apple hardware all you like as far as price and build quality goes. But I dislike Microsoft stealing everyone elses' programs / designs, putting their label on it and making massive profit form theft. Yea, I don't want people to steal from MS... but that doesn't mean I *do* want MS to steal from everyone else either. They deserve to be paid and insulted. XD Just as Apple deserve to be applauded for their OS, chided for their price tags, have their hardware poked fun of and very rude words said about their patents.
My experience with mac, true story :D
"I don't feel like I'm operating the mac so much as I'm just there sharing the Mac experience" XD
Mac fanboys are always deeply hurt, but true about mac is that it lack of software... it's like buying console PS3/XBOX360/Wii for hardware. In the end you will be disappointed because console = games. Games on console are more important than console itself.
Why linux is still not popular on desktops? It rules on servers, it rules on phones but on desktop you need games and commercial soft.
Vale is porting steam to linux, maybe something will move on desktops. Wine is another great project that will let you run old soft/games on modern PC. I don't see any practical use for mac, sorry. :)
BTW you can ask people who played StarCraft 2 or Diablo 3 on Mac and on PC how bad it works on Mac, it's either bad port or bad hardware :)
"There's only one good Mac... McDonalds" XD
Last edited by bobsobol; 15-07-12 at 09:43 PM.
Yea! I love that sketch, and shared it with everyone I knew who'd ever used Macs. XD
I can associate with everything he says. But, honestly, that was the change over period between OS 8 and OS X. (OS 9 was the "compatibility layer" so you could run OS 8 software on OS X because .... There was no OS X software when they released it. Remember, it's Y2K.
Classic Macs still didn't have proper multi-tasking and while Steve had been away making NeXT the Mac OS hadn't changed much since that Classic Mac II I used. It got colour screens and more resolution, (Mac2 was "high res" 512 x 384? ) switched (quite gracefully) from 680x0 CPUs to PPC, and became a 3D grey. (about 7.6) But essentially, it was all the same. OS X was sooooo different.
This is the pinnacle of Classic Macness. This is why I worry what modern Apple can do now Steve has passed.
This is the first release of OS X. ... Woa! Say what!?
It's like Going from Win98 to Vista, only Vista can't run *any* existing Windows software! How would PC users react to that?
Unsurprisingly, many Mac users re-formatted the hard disk of their new Mac and devoted all of the drive to OS 9. XD
Most of those "shutdown" and "system lock up" things he's talking about are all "Classic Mac" problems. They where competing with the constant BSODs of Win9x. And it's the exact same problem, with a different "user experience". Classic Mac had true 32-bit protected memory from first Boot, where Win9x didn't, but Win9x had cludgy multi-tasking (multi-threading) where Classic Mac did not. NT, and OS X pushed all of that aside. NT is essentially IBMs Vax VMS kernel for the PC, (rewrite) and OS X is essentially BSD. (port & fork ... actually fork to Match-O Xen, port and fork again to Darwin)
Dragging files from a CD / DVD to the desktop on OS X 10.0 made a copy. (actually, you couldn't fit many icons on your dektop, and if you ran out of space, you couldn't see them and needed to open the "Home:Desktop" folder in a window so you could scroll down to it, or just look at the "details" file list view XD) In OS 8/9 this was not the case. Anything over 2.88Meg was considered a hard disk and assumed to be "always available".
In 800x600, (as above, and a common maximum res for "Apple" displays) the Dock was unwieldy. And in early Mac versions, you could make the "magnify" value stupidly high, so that the icons where 16px and zoomed to 128 when the pointer was over them. The solution is simple, if you don't know what you're doing, GTFO of the System Preferences! I cured the OS X haters "Every Mac I go to is set up differently and I can't find anything" by locking down all of the system areas from the bash shell and imaging a standard OS setup to all Macs. (Carbon Copy Cloner rocks... I want a version that works on Doze) Users needed to give the network admin password to mess with that stuff, but could "work" just fine. That, funnily enough, made them happy again.
Renaming system files is also a "Classic Mac" problem, but MS introduced "System Restore" to ME because Windows users where doing the same thing with OS where users regularly operate with "root" privileges. Classic Mac was a single-user system. Even networked, you only needed to "log in" to access network resources. Not to use the Mac! (Mac users where horrified when they had to click on their avatar to get to their desktop even if they didn't set a password too)
I can have lots of fun at the expense of Mac users too. But if you know one end of an OS from another, it's pretty good. Nothings perfect, and I can giggle at Windows users for much the same. Here's a common one, I get with Windows users "I left my pendrive in the PC over the weekend, and now I can't see it in 'My Computer'?" Hmm, well, it will have gone into hibernation over all that time, have you tried un-plugging it, and plugging it back in? Also, try a different USB port. (because you didn't "Safely remove" the device) Also... WTH!!!? You can't safely remove the pendrive and log off before you go away for the weekend? Are you 12 and need to forget about school and go play!? FFS!
The screen grab for 10.0 I took from here and it's a modern Mac user who blogs about "Classic". This OT article, for his blog as well as this thread, is pretty sane. He says he missed these early OS X versions first time around, and I'm sure that's because everybody wiped them and used the companion OS 9 disc. So he also forgets that there was very little you could run that didn't come from Apple. (No Adobe, no Avid, no Macromedia, no nothing!)
He's using a 466Mhz iBook, but I think I was on a 600Mhz iMac / eMac when I played Diablo II and WoW. Diablo II was fine. I couldn't have any complaint, but it was fine on a 166 Pentium too. WoW was pretty good, considering a RISC processor (like the PPC G3, or the ARM CPU in most of your phones) will take about 5 instructions to de the same task as 1 on a CISC processor. (like i386) So you should consider it to be equivalent of about a 133Mhz Intel CPU. My PC was a 1.2Ghz AMD, and cost much less. XD
I worked on Mac very shortly and I just can't get over some bugs, Apple call them "features" =P
I will never get used to default mice, unless human hands evolve into this:
Other bad thing about mac is that it's actually one big part...
I would say I will stick with PC.
We can look on how innovative Apple is on this example:
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I really don't know why people say that Mac is better, first of all in what is better? In look? It's not a platform for games, even linux is doing more in that direction. It's not platform for professional video editing, 3D modeling, music editing, graphic... Mac is like fashion in hipster sense XD
And that's why I think that Mac don't deserver PristonTale port :D
Last edited by bobsobol; 15-07-12 at 10:17 PM.
Very far off-topic response to this post.
4shared gave me 15Gig of free storage from which no files have disappeared in the 2 years since I registered. Registration is free, but the files are, now, linked to my eMail address. Uploads made to 4shared without logging in (or if you haven't completed even the free registration) do not stay.
The problem is finding somewhere you can share a couple of gig without providing a valid eMail address, or getting an eMail account which isn't linked to another eMail account which will eventually link back to personal details about your IRL identity.
If such things are a concern for you, then finding a decent host is very difficult. In GNU terms, registration with Google or 4shared is not "free". It may not be charged for, but it does come with attached restrictions and responsibilities, and certainly destroy the freedom of anonymity the internet is famed for providing.
If you are thinking that that is great because it leaves nowhere for paedophiles and pirates to hide, you are correct. However, it's also a bad thing because it makes it very hard for positive activities such as whistle-bowing. Actually, in order to work, many of us take on contractual responsibilities with our employers and trade unions which mean that any private work associated with our real identity is also a reflection on our employer. Private personal works may be legal to share, but in breech of such contracts *if* they can be traced to us personally.
This is particularly important for writers, reporters, artists, engineers and inventors. Software development of any kind is covered by many of those headings. We do write, both code and documentation, we report on security issues, we are termed software "engineers" and we invent new routines and algorithms all the time, and in entertainment software, the level of artistic assets is always high.
Imagine an Artist at Blizzard North has a secret passion for Priston Tale. They would love to create models for the game and share them with us all, but their contract with Blizzard states that any 3D modelling they produce during their period of employment be owned solely by their employer. This is a very common clause in an artists contract of employment, as it's generally understood that artistic inspiration doesn't only come between 9 to 5 on weekdays, and if an employed artist leaves a rough sketch on a napkin in a diner, their employer needs to know that their rivals won't put it up in their game before they go to press. However, Blizzard North aren't ever going to use Priston Tale models, so that article is pointless here.
If that artist hosts those files in such a way that someone traces back their identity and breaks a story "Priston Tale assets created by Blizzard employee" he is instantly dismissed and will find it very difficult to find work anywhere else. If Blizzard want to find grounds to dismiss him without making redundancy payments they may investigate such minor contract breeches themselves.
It has been common for writers with such responsibilities to use a pseudonym, or "pen name" for centuries. With the current level and speed of digital forensic detective work, such pseudonyms must be very carefully thought out and executed if they are to be effective.
Long Long time ago in galaxy far far away on 4shared server I had my first release of ubuntu PT server... it lasted 2 months, end of story, but who knows maybe things changed since than. ;)
Google drive look reasonable, it's also assigned to your mail but google love collecting data. Gmail when started had unlimited space XD but now it's only 10 GB. So things will change... they always do.
If you need valid mail that will not lead back to you than here it is: 10 Minute Mail
Also if you are concerned with with legality of your files you can always crypt data and call it "myfiles".
Piracy is a very long subject and I think everyone should support company they like. Problem is that sometimes you can't...
Let's just hope that blizzard never touch PT '3'. They really know how to make short simple games that will sell when you hype them enough. If they planing to make good games instead then they have a lot to learn...
Here is how D3 should look like: Lineage Eternal: New Hack And Slash RPG Game - YouTube
+ this is MMO, D3 is not a MMO.
Korea know how to do good MMOs and they do lot of them too.
Good tip on 10 Minuet Mail. I used to use Temporary Inbox or Disposable Inbox if I need to respond.
Lineage Eternal looks identical to Diablo III in it's artistic style, but the "gestures" control system looks fantastic. Personally, what I liked about the previous Diablo games was that they where Multi-player, but *not* MMO. It's what I liked about the Dungeon Siege series too. It's nice to play with friends and family, and the open forum on BattleNet was a nice idea for finding new friends on-line to play with before "social networking" was all the rage. However, I made a point never to take Diablo, or D2 on-line, because of cheats (town-kill and hacked items mostly) and because Blizz kept changing my beloved game.
D3 is just the same. Seems they weren't making enough money from the RMAH, so they have just made it practically impossible to get any kind of decent drop except by competing at difficulty levels they initially said they didn't intend to be even vaguely possible.
So I guess I need a private server for that now too. Just so I can retrieve the decent game that was initially released. It's not like it's even that old!
Back at Apple and it's funny mice: I'd love a PC (Windows or Linux) driver for this! It's the same price as a replacement MagicMouse for your iMac. (okay, my dream iMac ... except, I prefer Macs that aren't All-In-One, for reasons Vormav illustrated above)
It's just a Bluetooth device, but I don't have a "rotate" function on any existing pointing device on my computer. Not my Trackball (which does rotate, but that doesn't achieve anything but a pointer giggle) or my tablet. (Still hating those funny hand-held puck devices on any OS XD) If they made 360 Connect drivers before the XBox had them... why not this? And what would rotate do when you're trying to read a badly scanned PDF? ^_^
I LOVE 10 minute mail. Use it all the time
*DK over and out*
My god not apple again XD, touchpad was invented for laptops and is very bad for stationary computer! But for apple anything stupid is "innovation"....
Another stupid apple "idea".
The Nifty MiniDrive - getting it out of your computer! - YouTube
Because "spring" is too "mainstream" XD
Hmm. I've not come across that one before. I can tell you that getting the SIM out of my (second hand) iPhone is a complete arse, and while it's the same size as a normal SIM, it's pin configuration and position is completely different, so I can't switch handsets when the battery dies. (Hey... it's an iPhone... the battery is *always* dead ) The last phone I had, I kept a spare battery charged up and switched those out around mid-day... I really don't fancy unscrewing the bottom of the iPhone, using a sucker to pull the screen out, disconnecting the 3 micro ribon cables which attach it to the main-board and removing the hard-disk to get to the battery and switch it out every day either. I did like the magnetic clamp-on power line on Mac laptops. I'm forever tripping over laptop power lines to answer the phone or turn the dinner down or something. It's never an issue with a Mac. Yea, they are expensive and slow, but *some* of the ideas like that are pretty neat. I guess you have to try an awful lot of useless ideas to get the occasional nifty one. But fair's fair. They *do* try.
I never plug a "mouse" into a laptop unless the touchpad is broken. But have purchased several keyboards with either a built in trackball or touchpad for my PC, so that I don't need the massive desk space waste of a "mouse". XD Never had a "multi-touch" one though.
I used to love Mac people who lost the floppy disk from their desktop. Mac has no "Eject" button, so if you can't drop the icon in the "trash can" you can't eject the disk. XD Apple recommended a paper-clip to resolve this issue too. But actually, you could send an eject code to the motor by writing a simple program... assuming the ejection motor hadn't packed up.
The same issue does persist with optical drives on a Mac today. But honestly, I can't remember the last time I used my optical drive. I even install from USB or PXE most times. It's so much easier to slipstream the service pack on a thumbdrive or tftp server. ^_^