you have to understand that the people behind Zeitgeist are some of the most intellectually dishonest individuals you will ever encounter. They don't care about other viewpoints. The whole movement resembles a faith more than anything else.
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you have to understand that the people behind Zeitgeist are some of the most intellectually dishonest individuals you will ever encounter. They don't care about other viewpoints. The whole movement resembles a faith more than anything else.
Read some of your own posts. You are an incredibly intolerant person, with, as you have shown thus far, no respect of any kind for the opinions and views of others. The post I quoted is included in those you should read over and pretend somebody else wrote - if you aren't on something, you'll realize they quash out and refuse to factor in opposing beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by vannaroth
actually all I've done so far is point out that this movement is an ideological matter so nobody is right or wrong here really. What I did do is point out some of the issues I have with the idea, for example the fact that it appears to be largely based on assumptions such as that all human beings will reach some purely theoretical 'higher' level of thought and consensually resolve all issues henceforth. it is for that reason that I compare it to a faith. At least one zeitgeist supporter in this thread alone has even advocated the 'removal' of those who do not share the belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Netrogor
The part about the people behind the zeitgeist films being intellectually dishonest is in my opinion entirely correct, and nothing to do with respect for beliefs. One look at the source lists for both films would confirm that. But I think you'll find i have been entirely respectful of peoples' right to follow their ideas or not - however that doesn't stop me from having issues with the ideas themselves. So far I haven't called anyone 'ignorant', 'elitist', 'stupid' or similar based on their opinions of this movement, which is more than some others in this thread can say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vannaroth
'Nuff said. You are full of shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by vannaroth
Next please? Hopefully somebody who'll present an opposing view and support it, rather than attack others.
what you quoted doesnt in any way refer to people's opinions of the movement but rather to the attitude that one can be 'incorrect' in opposing it. as i said, people can subscribe to zeitgeist if they want but berrating others for not following it is entirely foolish given its ideological rather than factual nature. that is what that post meant. sorry you misunderstood it but in future try not to misrepresent my views to support your own or at least don't insult me while doing so thanks.
Your saying everyone that buys into it, period, is a moron, isn't misrepresenting you when I make fun of how full of shit you are when you claim you haven't attacked anybody in this thread.
All you have been doing is flaming, flame-baiting, and quashing opposing views, as some sort of side-kick to DeathArt, relying on him to be the main force (and now that he isn't posting here, you are being rather easily called out for it - since attention to poor attitudes and flaming/flame-baiting isn't centered on him anymore).
Now seriously - where are the people with opposing views... who'll actually voice them? I'm not talking about vannaroth's, "Everyone who buys into this is a moron," crap... I'm talking about a respectable opposing view that doesn't attack people.
I didn't even read past this part of your post as you obviously didn't read mine. This is simply not what I said at all and I will not suffer arguments based entirely on misinterpretations of my posts. Read my last post, in it I gave a very clear explanation of what I meant, and it is nothing like what you have suggested. So far almost everyone in this thread has been acting maturely however you are disrupting things with name calling and extreme misrepresentation. In fact so far in this thread you have not made a single post that hasn't contained some degree of insult, and this entire dialogue between you and me has been the result of you a) misunderstanding one of my posts, and/or b) you refusing to accept or acknowledge the correct meaning of that post following my explanation of it. it is irksome indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Netrogor
Here are your exact words from an earlier post ->
Yea... you sure are mature, vannaroth.Quote:
Originally Posted by vannaroth
this whole silly argument has been spawned from your refusal to understand one of my posts and now you are attempting to turn it into a personal battle. if the best you can do is call me out over one post that you didn't even understand correctly then seriously, don't bother because I'm not going to humour you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Netrogor
---
now if anybody would care to participate in actual debate then I will re-iterate some of the issues I have with zeitgeist:
-the intellectual dishonesty of the filmmaker as shown by his source lists for both films (I can elaborate if required)
-the faith-like aspects of the movement: nobody knows for sure what will happen when the 'transition' is achieved or even if it can happen
-the supposed end result or even the means to achieve it are not necessarily desirable by everyone anyway, it's a matter of personal beliefs.
-the idea that profit is inherently evil and that technology and technology alone is what helps us. to me it seems that a system where supply exceeds demand and everything is done by technology and machines would be a breeding ground for idleness and ignorance.
Debate...
Something tells me vannaroth is lost. This thread isn't in the debate section - while debates may take place, that is not its only purpose.
And THANK YOU! If you actually read my posts, you'd see I was nagging at you to return to the thread and offer something, rather than attack people like you were doing. Now that you are doing that, all is good.
Actually if you read back through my posts you will find that the only insult I have used was in that relatively old post that you misunderstood, and even that was directed at non-specific individuals so can't be really classed as an attack on anyone. Now read back through yours, if you will. Almost all have contained direct insults. I also see you just couldn't resist taking a jab at me with that little 'debate' comment there. totally unnecessary and completely pointless, given that the nature of this thread so far has been geared toward debate.
if you really feel the need to post in this thread again then please, stop making it personal and stay on topic. i suggest that once you have read this post you delete your one above and i'll do the same with this one, as opposed to continuing some ridiculous quarrel that seems to have stemmed from some personal problem you have with me. if you choose the latter i will delete this post anyway and wont respond to yours.
activism, i dont like.
Slaveism you do like? ;P
the zeitgeist movement and idea is all about unity and to respond to our true spiritual nature, anyone who has read philosophy in a conscious way has a sense of our spiritual nature and our natural search for the truth. the zeitgeist movement encourages us to that search for truth. anyone who understands the actual state of the world knows there's something very very wrong about money, poverty and how goods are distributed, the zeitgeist movement doesn't claim to be the perfect solution but a step towards human development and a more equal society at least. with that said I support the zeitgeist movement and encourage everyone to watch both movies and come up with your own conclusions. Watch the movies!
(Sorry, I'm not quite good in speaking english. These are only my thoughts, they might not be accurate.)
I agree with the Zeigeist Movement, but only for certain extends. I'm not trying to say Zeigeist Movement isn't correct, but from what I see, Zeigeist Movement is a future revolution if the movement is known to everyone. I'll try to explain it in detail.
1. How does the Zeitgeist Movement become Revolutionary?
This can only happen when POOR is more than RICH. When poor are more than rich, they overthrow the government, just like any other historical cases of communism. Then how does poor gets more than rich? This is due to several occurance.
1st Occurence :
As stated by the video, the longer the greed(Money) last, more people would suffer from bankruptcy. When more suffers from bankruptcy, more gets poor. This cause the revolution to happen.
2nd Occurance :
When American's World Trade Center lies dead flat. When the World Trade Center closes down, all government would gather all their money from all banks and then all banks including World's Bank would claim back all assets being loan out. All premises would be claimed back and all companies and factories would suffer bankruptcy. When comapnies and factories closes down, many would be unemployed. When unemployed, people would not go to small outlets to shop and therefore, small outlets would close down. This is CHAOS. This massive unemployment would cause more people to get poor. Therefore, causes the revoluton to happen.
There are more occurence for the would to make Zeitgeist Movement to become revotionary, but they are not sensible. For example, "The government of all countries is going destroy all money in their states to enhance the Zeitgeis Movement." This is impossible.
2. Then how the Revolution goes?
1st -
When poor are more than rich, poor tends to overthrow the government, like when had happened during the monarchy empire. Example : Riots, terrorism, creation of new leadership, etc.
2nd-
New groups or parties would be form to make this movement revolutionary. These groups would be the leading groups that pushes down the politic system.
3rd-
After overtaking the government, new policy would be given to improve lives of people.
Example : Moneytary of all expenses would become 0. All debts would be cut off.
4th-
Governments and politics jobs do not have vaulation, they work for nothing. In another word, they only do voluntary work. (Political jobs are civl services like police that governs the country.)
5th-
People do not do work. Technology of agriculture feeds them. Where farms are govern by te government.
This sounds like a communist state. In factual, it is. As stated in the video, there'll be no government, I personally thinks that a state without having a government is impossible. Groups of people without leaders wouldn't survive. Government leads people on their behaviour and leadership is the key of the revolution. One wouldn't want chaos to happen, right? So, government is required.
The Zeigeist Movement is only made temporary. Why?
Answer : Greed.
Even if it's in the commnuist state, there would be jelousy, and jealousy leads to greed.
When greeds come in, people would want the history of 'money' to occur again, but in another form. This would cause another revolution. These 'money' in the new revolution is less harmful than the money being used in the modern world. This is due to the economic reset.
The disadvantages of the Zeitgeist Movement
When the revolution occurs-
-People do not require to work, therefore, like a communist state, they are not commited to work as food comes in for free.
-There'll be no competition within people, and therefore, they slack all day long.
-From this point, the rich would get unhappy as they see that their efforts were being put into waste.
-Techonology do not improve.
-Education would be badly affected.
In conclusion, The Zeitgeist Movement, is a revolution that is something that have to be made, which resets the economic structure. The Zeigeist Movement is importation for us and to keep the poor survive.
Wish you guys understand what I'm trying to express. Thanks for reading. :/:
For someone who's "not quite good at English," you've just made the most sense I've seen in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endothermic
The Zeitgeist Movement, in my opinion, is a pipe-dream of a perfect world.
We will never have such a world due to the competitive behaviour of humans (which is instilled in us through nature/natural selection/evolution and not because of the monetary system as the movie has us believe - read Richard Dawkins' The Selfish Gene which explains in-part what I'm trying to say).
The notion that a select few "engineers/technicians/scientists" would work for humanity out of complete selflessness is again, a pipe dream. Yes, I'm sure they would reason that by 'fixing the machine' they will be in-turn benefiting themselves as well as the rest of society, but they will soon come to question ''why should we do all the work for the rest of this idle society?'.
Ever been pissed off that your hard earned money gets taken off you via tax and soaked up by those lazy people claiming benefits off of the government for refusing to work (jobseekers allowance)? Same thing.
Also, with this kind of society - laying back and allowing 'technology' to solve all of our problems - aside from being impossible, would cause the world to fall into idleness and ignorance (vannaroth gets credit for pointing this out).
Why is it impossible you ask?
For example, thousands of people would be required to 'work' (full-time in many roles) in order for these technologies to be operational. Pilots, conductors, engineers, maintenance/repair guys, scientists, teachers etc... would be needed to operate/repair this technology and teach others to do the same. And everyone involved in this would have to do it all for "the good of society as a whole". So these people get to 'waste' their lives just so the majority of the population can sit in their mansions and soak up everything for free? Isn't this exactly what the Zeitgeist movement is trying to prevent? Apart from the majority/minority is switched in today's world (many people work and a few get to reap the rewards), though at least with the current system the worker gets something to show for his/her efforts (i.e. money to spend on themselves).
There has ALWAYS been some sort of trading system in human society. Whether it was gold, land, food, slaves or indeed money, it has always been there. Why? Because we need it in order to form a structured society and we need it for motivation. A lot of people are motivated by the prospect of more money (or more of the things money buys) and without that motivation, society would not progress as quickly as it does, if at all. Society also needs leadership, and without it, chaos would ensue.
Yes, there are many holes and problems with the current system, and it should be changed, but I think this way is not the answer. Human (and any other animal) society has always been about survival of the fittest, and most people will exploit any system if they can, so there is no answer to the perfect world - it doesn't exist.
I personally don't have many problems with the current system, it rewards those who put in the effort and those who figured out how to manipulate it. The people at the top of society (rich business owners and politicians) would not agree with this and those that conjured the Zeitgeist Movement (and many who endorse it) would not agree if they were to make it to the top.
This seems to me as a solution for those who are not willing to work for a living, or those who have grown up dreaming of living in a mansion and driving a Ferrari but have only just come to see that it's never going to happen for them. I just don't think this so-called revolution has been thought out very much, it seems to me that it's idealistic and very ignorant of its repercussions.
I apologise for the sporadic nature of my response, I had to end it abruptly due to the fact that I'm off out now :P.
I'm posting this reply for :
1. People who thinks that the Zeitgeist Movement is TOTALLY wrong.
2. People who thinks that the Zeitgeist Movement is TOTALLY correct.
3. Blurs.
Dear readers,
The Zeitgeist Movement is not totally correct, nor wrong. It's not totally ideological either, because due to some extends, it would happen. Let me explain this further to prevent misunderstandings.
As I've said ealier in the first post, this Zeitgeist Movement would be a factual revolution in FUTURE, not in PRESENT, whereby the poor gets more than the rich. When the poor gets more than the rich, the poor would overthrow the government and this causes revolution to happen. (Read my previous post.) This could only happen when everyone knows about this Zeitgeist Movement or either someone, probably a leader of the people introduces it. This shows that Zeitgeist Movement has a possibility to become true, but it's only temporary.
There's also a possibility for make the Zeitgeist Movement become permanent.
How?
In many ways, depending of the Educational System and Religious. These are factors that changes the mind set of people and take them out of greed. This changes wouldn't happen within a day nor week, not even a year nor a dozen, it'll take a century or even a millenium. (Provided that they don't get intact with the term : Money)
Why?
People would want to have more power than others, therefore, greed is being revealed. These are common to almost every human. They tend to want more money so that they could gain power. To change their ideologcal thinking, it's possible, but it'll take a very long time for them the change.
In conclusion, it is almost impossible for the Zeitgeist Movement to become permanent. Because, due to our human nature, what we want is power(greed). Example : To win others, to win more support, to have more glory, to have better results. Tell me, would you give up on studies and let others have better results than you? Or would be rather become the first in your class? Logical?
But I personally thinks that this Zeitgeist Movement is positive as this movement would do an overall Economy Reset.
What is an Economical Reset?
It changes all monetary factor to ZERO for the period of time, then changes all assets back to their historical cost. Therefore making the assets of all people equal, This makes less of the population of the world to get poor. So, I agree the the Zeitgeist Movement.
As stated above, the Zeitgeist Movement is equally right is equally wrong. In fact, there's no right or wrong for this movement.
Anyway, it'll almost take us a century for the Zeitgeist Movement to become ture as we people do not have the power to overthrow the politics in present. People at present should see this as an educational programme of economic structure in the politics, instead of flaming or fighting among each other as both parties are not wrong.
Most importantly, I'll have to thanks the Adminstrator of RaGEZONE (MetaL) and the Sub-Adminstrator (Exclamatio) for sharing this video of The Zeitgeist Movement. It really opened my eyes about the economical factors and facts of the politics. Thanks alot.
Peace,
Endothermic
When Zeigeist Movement is made permanent, it'll be the Evolution of a new human with new human nature.
Known as the Evolution of New-Human.
...this is just a load of crap, the fact that evryone forgot the golden rule. you do not spend money you dont have!!!!, and is no-ones fault, no scam, no "enslaveing".
Is it just me or is the idea of the Zeitgeist Movement coming off as a simply reiteration of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto. The poor people "enslaved" by the impoverishing monetary instution will cause them to rise up and defeat the rich. They will then go about restarting the entire global money system so everyone is equal.Or at least that is the gist I get from watching part of the movie and read the comments.
We know, as history shows, Karl Marx was wrong, while his idea of equality may not be so bad, it is an unachievable goal. The first main reason people are not willing to give up National Identity, Religion, Language, and money for the sake of Equality and Unity. Those that think it is possible to do this need to get a serious smack of reality in them. Secondly, these "proletarians" that are enslaved by the monetary system are far better off then they were when Karl Marx wrote his famous book.
Lastly, It is IMPOSSIBLE for true equality to every exist. If, as EndoThermic says, we have a Economic and Political Reset...
Who will lead?
Who decides what is right and what is wrong for society?
Does not that person that decides what is right or wrong have more power than the person that has to follow the rules?
These questions can go on forever...
P.S. This movie was done by a guy that thinks 9/11 is an inside job, so the validity of what he says is an automatic zero in my book.
While Communism would actually be an ideal form of Government, as a True Communism would mean equality and the likes, that will never happen. First and foremost, human beings are evil. Your natural instinct when you see an apple is to eat it for yourself. It takes an act of will to share it, or give it to another human being, even if they may be starving and you are not. That is why Russia was corrupted with dictators such as Joseph Stalin, and China by Chairman Mao.
That's good to know; that you aren't open to discussion on this, that is. You shall be ignored, as is your wish, from here on out (concerning this specific discussion). I would appreciate it if no +1 posting took place from you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loregoreth
Communism, corrupt or not, is not the way to go. Equality can NEVER be achieved, simply because we are NOT equal. Some people are more intelligent, stronger, faster etc.. than others and that is the way of the world, it is our inequalities and our differences that make the world an interesting place. These characteristics of human beings has given rise to competition between each other and a striving for success which has lead to progression as a species (take the Space Race and World Wars as examples; the amount of technology born from those periods was enormous).
If we were all the same, the world would be a stale and boring place with next to no progression at all.
And I don't think human beings are evil by nature. Evil is a subjective term anyway, so it cannot be used in absolute to describe an entire species. Yes, people are selfish by nature, but that is not the same as being evil. By being selfish, we survive, we look out for ourselves, our friends and our family (especially our children because the needs of the next generation surpasses that of our own); it's an evolutionary imperative.
Communism's great on paper, terrible in practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra
best post in the whole threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Hydra
this is so true i already understood most of it but alot of this is new information and i'm definitly gonna tell my friends about this
may be beacuse the ones that have lead the biggest comunist gov where idiots xDQuote:
Originally Posted by KyleEnos
But u cant say 100% that capitalism is perfect