Videos leaked of US troops firing on civilians and reporters in Iraq

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Originally Posted by TheOther

High School diploma required to join any military service in American, just saying

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that and you cant be hired, its voluntary. again, use your head and read some facts before you post your stupidity. People who join the military usually have no planned future after highschool. I know plenty of people who have fallen into this. The military promises money and a great future, its a gimmick to get you to sign up cuz chances are, your gunna die...

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Originally Posted by Blackbox

And if the world had enough people with 'common sense' there obviously wouldn't be a job for them as military's wouldn't be needed.

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You're delusional, or perhaps naive, I'm sorry but I must say. We're talking about 'now.' I'm just saying before you go any further blowing somebody else's head off because you're too insane.

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High School diploma required to join any military service in American, just saying

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I must have misjudge the 16 year old dropouts then. Regardless, it raises the doesn't-make-sense bar.

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hire people to be in our military? is that what you mean. God i hope not.

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Hire and recruit, the same fuckin' thing, they get paid.

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Originally Posted by darkdemon89

that and you cant be hired, its voluntary. again, use your head and read some facts before you post your stupidity. People who join the military usually have no planned future after highschool. I know plenty of people who have fallen into this. The military promises money and a great future, its a gimmick to get you to sign up cuz chances are, your gunna die...

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I slightly remember them offering to help pay for college as well at some point.

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Originally Posted by Blackbox

I slightly remember them offering to help pay for college as well at some point.

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Each military branch has there own benefits and yes I think the national guard helps pay for college.

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Originally Posted by Blackbox

I slightly remember them offering to help pay for college as well at some point.

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yea, pending that you
A. live long enough
B. actually go to college instead of staying in the military

i never got why people got excited when they heard that from the recruiter. the chances of someone going back to school after being away from it for that long is slim to non. Plus, shooting a gun is a lot better then reading a book for class. never got to shoot the gun, been reading the book instead.......

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Originally Posted by darkdemon89

so after watching this video, then reading every single post. ive come to this. i know that half of you wont agree and the other half will. because thats just the kinda response you will get with something like this. But enough with this.

The american military is basically bred to kill. dont deny it, look at your own countries military, even if your not in a current war ( your lucky) you can find AT LEAST 10 guys who are ready to blow the heads off some other guys. For the people that say the gunner was trigger happy, lets think of it this way. If you were told that the war your fighting was to "better the world" and were shown images and video of what these guys have done to INNOCENT people, OF COURSE you would get trigger happy if you saw these guys. They basically tell you to kill and be proud about what you did. i understand that these people, or at least some, where completely innocent. and its horrible that it happened. but just like others have said. WTF are you doing crouching around a building pointing SOMETHING at a helicopter. USE YOUR HEAD. i dont care if this is a warzone or not. Obviously there is something going on, otherwise they wouldnt have been patrolling the area. If you look at the crouching individual and compare it with other war videos, you would swear the guy was trying to shoot you down. now i did notice that he said they were being fired upon right after he noticed this, was it unnecessary? probably. But again, you have to realize that some of these military people could have lost fellow soldiers in the same exact way.

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He didn't point shit at the helicopter. He was taking a picture of something down the road. The helicopter, a common sight in Baghdad, was about a kilometre away. He had absolutely no way of knowing that it was watching them, it could have been watching anyone or anything. To him, all he was doing was innocently taking a picture. This guy was born-and-raised Iraqi war photographer. I think he knew a little more about how to behave in these situations than you or any of us, so we can all stop accusing him of being stupid now.

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Another this to note is that the whole van incident is pretty well uncalled for. i understand the fight on both sides, but dont make it sound like the american military are terrorists for hurting a child that they didnt know existed til they scanned the area. If that was so, they would have blown the head off her. INSTEAD they helped the child..... Get your definitions of terrorist correct.
Also, it wasnt the gunners fault for this. one of them told a higher ranked officer about the situation, which was then approved by that SAME officer to engage, notice the chatter between them.. If they were so damn trigger happy, they wouldn't care and just blow the whole city up or atleast kill the guy the van was trying to save. so u cannot blame the gunner himself. After the main group of military personal showed up, notice that someone asked who authorized the attack. obviously wondering wtf went wrong if they were all civilians.

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They opened fire on an unarmed man giving medical assistance to a wounded and unarmed person. That's a war crime, and would be even if he was an insurgent. It's against the first Geneva Convention. He saw the situation, requested to open fire, and then he did. That makes him responsible.

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Another big part you need to understand is this. Just because this video shows a group of 10-20 people being slaughtered for just an assumption doesnt mean this is the worst thing to ever happen in a war. go look up the statistics for civilian causalitys in any war. WWI WWII Vietnam ANYTHING! you will notice that EVERY WAR HAS THIS PROBLEM. its part of it, sadly.

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Because bad things are always happening it doesn't mean we should ignore it when something like this comes to light. I don't doubt that stuff like this happens/happened a whole lot in Iraq, but it's rare that we get to see the raw footage.

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Originally Posted by troublemaker1111

He didn't point shit at the helicopter. He was taking a picture of something down the road. The helicopter, a common sight in Baghdad, was about a kilometre away. He had absolutely no way of knowing that it was watching them, it could have been watching anyone or anything. To him, all he was doing was innocently taking a picture. This guy was born-and-raised Iraqi war photographer. I think he knew a little more about how to behave in these situations than you or any of us, so we can all stop accusing him of being stupid now.

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im not really sure about this, if u watch him, why would he be continuously moving farther out as if he was waiting to get the "right" photo of the object. he doesnt even bring the camera up til right before the copter goes behind the building. yes its possible he was taking a pic of something else. but to point the lens (or whatever) right before going behind the building is a little sketchy if i were a gunner.

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They opened fire on an unarmed man giving medical assistance to a wounded and unarmed person. That's a war crime, and would be even if he was an insurgent. It's against the first Geneva Convention. He saw the situation, requested to open fire, and then he did. That makes him responsible.

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like i said, i dont like this part at all. was totally wrong but he got the OK to open fire, so its not his fault. yea he is trigger happy to. clearly can see that

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Because bad things are always happening it doesn't mean we should ignore it when something like this comes to light. I don't doubt that stuff like this happens/happened a whole lot in Iraq, but it's rare that we get to see the raw footage.

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and yea its awesome footage (not as in deaths) but to get this footage, its rare

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Originally Posted by darkdemon89

INSTEAD they helped the child..... Get your definitions of terrorist correct.

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False, the ground troops radioed for permission to MedEvac the children to a US military hospital (which is what they are supposed to do) and it was denied, so the children were to suffer until the local ambulance came and be treated there instead...

Crash

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Originally Posted by CrashOveride

False, the ground troops radioed for permission to MedEvac the children to a US military hospital (which is what they are supposed to do) and it was denied, so the children were to suffer until the local ambulance came and be treated there instead...

Crash

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watch the video from 21:39 to 21:50
if thats not a little girl being taken to the tank/humvee, then i must be so baked i cant see straight

and if you could, can u tell me where they got denied, i cant find it. not being an ass, i just really cant find it

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Originally Posted by darkdemon89

watch the video from 21:39 to 21:50
if thats not a little girl being taken to the tank/humvee, then i must be so baked i cant see straight

and if you could, can u tell me where they got denied, i cant find it. not being an ass, i just really cant find it

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27:30~28:20, request and denial.

Crash

yea, thats a bummer.
but he makes it sound like they were notified of this pickup.
still, at least someone tried

thanks for sharing!

btw, what does ip in that sense stand for?

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Originally Posted by darkdemon89

yea, thats a bummer.
but he makes it sound like they were notified of this pickup.
still, at least someone tried

thanks for sharing!

btw, what does ip in that sense stand for?

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I'd hazard a guess at Iraqi Police.

Crash

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Originally Posted by CrashOveride

I'd hazard a guess at Iraqi Police.

Crash

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ah, ok thanks.

i also just noticed that towards the end, with the missle part, that they were worried about the friendlys and went a different route to shoot it. to bad for the guy walking right in front of the building tho. again, shoulda waited to shoot

They're bunch of senseless people.
I bet all they can do is use guns.

Put them on a 7th grading science quiz bee.

they have a show for that, its called "are u smarter than a fifth grader"

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Originally Posted by SeraphiPod

They're bunch of senseless people.
I bet all they can do is use guns.

Put them on a 7th grading science quiz bee.

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Senseless people huh?
Right, because having military buddies backs is so senseless.

Hey, ever thought of "Oh, they can potentially fire upon friendlies!"

Fucking prick.

FYI;
http://i42.tinypic.com/29e5fmr.jpg

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Originally Posted by darkdemon89

ah, ok thanks.

i also just noticed that towards the end, with the missle part, that they were worried about the friendlys and went a different route to shoot it. to bad for the guy walking right in front of the building tho. again, shoulda waited to shoot

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That wasn't a friendly - That was one of the guys traveling into the empty building.

It's called war, whether you like it or not. It happens all the time.

You'd all be pissed the fuck off at the military if they opened fire on your loved ones because they were carrying photography equipment in your normal, occupied hometown.

I saw weapons. I've never seen photography equipment that looked like a Kalashnikov or an RPG. Further, carrying weapons or being near someone carrying weapons in a warzone when you're on the losing side is typically a really fucking stupid idea unless you want to be killed. Also, I do believe reports said that weapons matching those visibly confirmed in the video were found amongst the bodies. So either you're a conspiracy theorist in regards to the US army (and probably an extreme hypocrite, like in troublemaker's case) and don't believe the report can be trusted, or you're making the classic mistake of trying to apply hindsight to a situation where a snap judgement was called for and made. Such a thing is academic at best.

People make mistakes and in a militarily hot zone, you are NOT free to do whatever you want there, and that means it's a good idea to think ahead and avoiding carrying around equipment that might be easily mistaken for a weapon. Baghdad is not like your local city where people assume nothing is wrong. The second you try to make an analogy between the two is the second you abandon all hope at a logical argument. In most cases, the rules of engagement would've been much stricter and required more stringent proof of insurgency, but as multiple army officials have said, the situation was part of a more involved series of engagements. Taking it out of context is just another issue surrounding this controversy.

Its very bad to fire in any civilians and its very good to capture this type of images and show people for military attitude.
Only one request is "Live and Let Live".
Good Job.

Thanks

Shouldnt of done it, but... :/

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Originally Posted by jMerliN

I saw weapons. I've never seen photography equipment that looked like a Kalashnikov or an RPG. Further, carrying weapons or being near someone carrying weapons in a warzone when you're on the losing side is typically a really fucking stupid idea unless you want to be killed. Also, I do believe reports said that weapons matching those visibly confirmed in the video were found amongst the bodies. So either you're a conspiracy theorist in regards to the US army (and probably an extreme hypocrite, like in troublemaker's case) and don't believe the report can be trusted, or you're making the classic mistake of trying to apply hindsight to a situation where a snap judgement was called for and made. Such a thing is academic at best.

People make mistakes and in a militarily hot zone, you are NOT free to do whatever you want there, and that means it's a good idea to think ahead and avoiding carrying around equipment that might be easily mistaken for a weapon. Baghdad is not like your local city where people assume nothing is wrong. The second you try to make an analogy between the two is the second you abandon all hope at a logical argument. In most cases, the rules of engagement would've been much stricter and required more stringent proof of insurgency, but as multiple army officials have said, the situation was part of a more involved series of engagements. Taking it out of context is just another issue surrounding this controversy.

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jMerliN, this thread is a 5 page long conversation so I would appreciate it if you read at least some of it before butting in. What is interesting is that you have completely ignored the second two incidents. Why is that?

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Originally Posted by TheOther

High School diploma required to join any military service in American, just saying

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Actually, no you don't. But you do need at least GED. Which they pay you to get. Speaking from experience. I joined looking forward to going across seas some day, regardless if I come back or not, I honestly couldn't care less. But it doesn't look like it'll happen. From what I keep reading in the news. Their planning on having everyone out of there by 2011.
With that being said, life is for the living, if some one gave me permission to shoot a guy because he "looked" like he was holding some kind of weapon, then I will by all means let loose on his ass. I'm just sayin. If your in the middle of a battle zone, and your given an order. It would be to your advantage to obey it.
Not gonna say it's ok to go around killing innocent people willy nilly, but look back a couple hundred years. Whites killed blacks for the fun of it, hell some still do. You don't see that kind of stuff being argued about or blasted on the news.
What goes on over there has NOTHING to do with what's going on over here. and vice versa. If you don't live in the US or surrounding areas of Baghdad, then why are you even commenting on something that doesn't even remotely involve you?

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Originally Posted by troublemaker1111

jMerliN, this thread is a 5 page long conversation so I would appreciate it if you read at least some of it before butting in. What is interesting is that you have completely ignored the second two incidents. Why is that?

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You're thinking like a civilian which is the problem. In war, some random guys drive up, drags one of the wounded into the van and drive off? If the vehicle was clearly marked as an emergency medical vehicle, it absolutely would not have been fired upon. A wounded man who may have information useful to an investigation into what happened or for instance in tracking down where those weapons came from and who was responsible is being dragged off by unknown persons in an unmarked vehicle which happens to drive over seconds after artillery leveled that street? In a war, you don't assume that's a guy trying to help and drive him to a hospital, not unless their dress or vehicle says so.

I'd bet you would have a lot more problems with the way war is fought huh? For instance, if you're out in the field, it's common practice to double tap infantry, in that I mean when you're advancing over an area you've cleared, you're generally free to shoot any infantry laying there unless they surrender or you want to take them hostage. So the "pretend to be dead" rouse never works practically, you'll just get killed in a humiliating way. War is about results, not about spending 10 weeks debating over an issue before pulling the trigger as the stupid black president we currently are being oppressed by would have it.

Let me point this gun right back at you: It wasn't too long ago, I recall, as I was in England at the time, that a completely unarmed man in one of your train stations was gunned down by what was it.. 5+ shots fired because he didn't hear or recognize the police ("hey you, stop!" is not a valid challenge btw) and was wearing a jacket? Turns out he had done nothing wrong but was only linked to any suspect activity by circumstantial evidence at best, and hardly at that. Where's your 5 page long ragezone thread on that? Seems like it's similar, some cops unload an excessive number of rounds into a man after he trips onto a train because they think they saw him in the vicinity of some terror suspects? Hmmmmmmmmmm. Applying some logic, we'll deduce that the officers were hardly convinced he had a bomb, because shooting at someone with a bomb is generally considered stupid. So he was killed for what?

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War is about results, not about spending 10 weeks debating over an issue before pulling the trigger as the stupid black president we currently are being oppressed by would have it.

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before pulling the trigger as the stupid black president we currently are being oppressed by would have it.[

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as the stupid black president we currently are being oppressed by

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stupid black president

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Fuck off you dumb racist cunt. Of course you don't care about any of this, they're not white Americans. Also, read the fucking thread you lazy semi-literate moron, if I responded to anything in your post I would be repeating myself for at least the 4th time on any given issue you have raised.

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Originally Posted by jMerliN

stupid black president

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Tsk - racism just isn't cool...

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Originally Posted by jMerliN

Where's your 5 page long ragezone thread on that?

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2 Pages + 3 Pages = 5 pages.
In Part: 3 pages, 1 page

How about not being a Smart Alec?

Crash

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Originally Posted by troublemaker1111

Fuck off you dumb racist cunt. Of course you don't care about any of this, they're not white Americans. Also, read the fucking thread you lazy semi-literate moron, if I responded to anything in your post I would be repeating myself for at least the 4th time on any given issue you have raised.

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That's not a racist comment at all.

Also, lol @ "semi literate". At least you're beginning to realize that I'm vastly superior to you in every way.

You won't think about the issue logically, you just apply hindsight and assert superiority in a moral or ethical manner, when in reality, the situation isn't so black and white as you'd like it to be. Therefore, I will not address you in a debate or discussion over the issues in any logical fashion.

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Originally Posted by troublemaker1111

Fuck off you dumb racist cunt. Of course you don't care about any of this, they're not white Americans. Also, read the fucking thread you lazy semi-literate moron, if I responded to anything in your post I would be repeating myself for at least the 4th time on any given issue you have raised.

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Out of all the comments he made, you just picked a "stupid black president" comment?

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Originally Posted by jMerliN

Also, lol @ "semi literate". At least you're beginning to realize that I'm vastly superior to you in every way.

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Heil jMerlin, get it?

On the contrary your comments come off as subtle racism since there is absolutely no need to include that he's black, "stupid president" would suffice and adding it just seems like you are emphasizing it.

Crash

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Originally Posted by jMerliN

That's not a racist comment at all.

Also, lol @ "semi literate". At least you're beginning to realize that I'm vastly superior to you in every way.

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Except that you're a lowlife racist cretin and you don't even realise it because you're so sheltered and ignorant that you can't even distinguish between the very fundamentals of right and wrong. The only way you could think it's acceptable to constantly refer to Obama with terms like "big black idiot" and "stupid black man" is if you were so profoundly detached from every day life that you are some sort of pathetic social recluse. Therefore it's not surprising that you have the moral sensibilities of some kind of autistic robot. Stick to coding useless programs, you miserable hermit, you haven't got the brain for humanities.

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Originally Posted by azntrung

Out of all the comments he made, you just picked a "stupid black president" comment?

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Every time he talks about Obama he refers to his race in an insulting fashion. This is at least the third or fourth time I've seen it. He also like to argue that black people are stupider than white people. Frankly, I'm sick of his shit.

Yea... it's the same "stupid black president" that passed the health care bill that's been rejected for only god knows how many years before.

Yea. he's just horrible... Forcing companies to give their employees health care insurance.

I think it's about time to close this and let people calm down a bit due to the flames starting, it's becoming less about the topic and more about how people think etc.
(ie. flames on why someone thinks that way rather than the actual topic)

I guess it was just a matter of time, I'll see about re-opening it later once people have calmed down a bit and know to only post on the issue.

Crash