Why Win8 failed

[Robert]

So, Win8 has been a complete an utter failure, surpassing the fail that was Vista.

DailyTech - Windows 8 Usage Sinks Below Vista Levels

But why?

The article makes 3 very good points, "Many have wondered whether it went too far with the graphical gloss, whether it was disrespecting developers with its shift to a walled-garden "Windows Store" app distribution model, and whether it was forsaking traditional desktop power users." I think it all comes down to that third point. It's a mobile OS, designed specifically to target Android and iOS. But does anyone else feel like that is the complete and utter opposite direction they should be going? No one is using Android or iOS for their laptops and desktops, and I would personally prefer a Win7 Tablet over any other option, purely for the software it would open up.

This is before we take into account you have to actually buy the OS. Lets be honest, Win8 isn't really competing with iOS because apple fanboys aren't going to buy it regardless of how expensive it is given Android devices are so much cheaper and just as good, if not better. So you have Win8 competing with Android, but the Win8 device is auto £50-£100 more expensive, and it's not like you can use your current software on it if it's the RT version, so you need to rebuy all that too.

Did it really stand a chance? Windows has never been a brand which can charge a premium, it's always been a brand for the masses because that's what made it good. As a mobile OS, anything over free is a premium, and I simply don't think MS has the luxury of being able to do that. The profit for mobile OSs comes from the media distribution.

As a mobile OS it might work well, Gohans phone looked good enough, but really it's entirely irrelevant, I don't personally care what OS is on my phone because I don't use it enough, and it's bundled with the phone so it's not like I really have a choice. I buy a phone for its spec (mostly screen size and price) not for what OS it has on it, or the brand. Perhaps I am alone in this, but mobile OSs just don't interest me when I spend 90% of my time on a PC, and just want a powerful OS.


So, why do you think Win8 failed?

[MentaL]

[Alfons]

Because in the end it's Windows 7 with the addition of the horrible Metro UI, which 90% of the users absolutely detest. No reason to upgrade whatsoever.

[Laz-low]

Aye, there's not much reason to upgrade as Windows 8 doesn't bring much (although I love Metro), but in the difference of time between the release of Windows 7 and 8, ownership of computers (mobile devices included) has rocketed ridiculously high (struggling to find stats but I have read articles as recent as the past 6-12 months) so a comparison isn't particularly correct unless figures are adjusted to allow for an increase in ownership. On the other hand given Windows 8 is available on PCs, laptops and Surface, these are very disappointing figures

[Razer]

Nothing to discuss. Windows 8 is just plain shit. That retro start menu.. ew.

[Robert]

Aye, there's not much reason to upgrade as Windows 8 doesn't bring much (although I love Metro), but in the difference of time between the release of Windows 7 and 8, ownership of computers (mobile devices included) has rocketed ridiculously high (struggling to find stats but I have read articles as recent as the past 6-12 months) so a comparison isn't particularly correct unless figures are adjusted to allow for an increase in ownership. On the other hand given Windows 8 is available on PCs, laptops and Surface, these are very disappointing figures

But how many of these mobile device users own PCs? Yes it looks impressive on paper if you take it to mean people are replacing their PCs with smartphones and tablets, but I just don't think that is happening. Hell my parents got my grandma a tablet for xmas, then replaced it with a netbook a few weeks later because touchscreens just suck. I'm convinced given the option people would prefer a desktop style approach to a mobile OS, rather than the reverse that Win8 created. Which is what I am hoping Linux provides, but then that lacks a lot of the software windows allows.

[Samus.]

I think because Windows 7 still has enough to offer for all those users who just only use their PC for the simple things such as Internet, mail, internet banking, pictures, etc. The most upgraded from XP to 7 already and one reason why they don't upgrade is because they just "got" Windows 7. They are used to it and apparently, they don't see the need to upgrade.

Also, you get some note with the hotkeys you'll need to learn to figure out where where is.

What not to buy on Black Friday: Windows 8 PCs & laptops | ZDNet

It's decent when you get yourself a combo with Stardock Corporation and Windows 8

[GohanSSJ]

Windows 8 isn't so much a replacement for Windows 7, but rather a new version created to boost touchscreen use in mobile PC's.

As for those numbers, frankly I find them as unreliable as the numbers coming from MS. Because while MS is focusing on licenses that went out the door (instead of using numbers based activated W8), they are using numbers based on the idea to rip MS a new one (personally I can't even produce the numbers they claim - though that may just be because I don't know how that site works properly). In the end the usage of Windows 8 is quite different from previous Windows versions, there is a good chance that sites like FB is seeing a different ratio between different versions from Windows, then those sites are, this is simply because certain devices with W8 are used differently.

[Robert]

Windows 8 isn't so much a replacement for Windows 7, but rather a new version created to boost touchscreen use in mobile PC's.

As for those numbers, frankly I find them as unreliable as the numbers coming from MS. Because while MS is focusing on licenses that went out the door (instead of using numbers based activated W8), they are using numbers based on the idea to rip MS a new one (personally I can't even produce the numbers they claim - though that may just be because I don't know how that site works properly). In the end the usage of Windows 8 is quite different from previous Windows versions, there is a good chance that sites like FB is seeing a different ratio between different versions from Windows, then those sites are, this is simply because certain devices with W8 are used differently.

The numbers if anything are skewed in favour of MS. Mobile and Desktop numbers should be separated, they just aren't the same thing. Paying for a Desktop OS is the normal, everyone is used to that model. Paying for a mobile OS is the complete opposite to the current model. It's like if android and chrome OS merged, and then Google started claiming 400million are using their OS. Technically it would be true, but it doesn't really give a clear impression of actual users on desktops/laptops (ie pretty much all of them are using the android version).

I just don't understand why they didn't just keep windows mobile frankly. By all means keep implementing more and more of the desktop functionality, which would have made for a hell of a mobile OS. By make the desktop OS more like a mobile OS instead? I don't get the logic, didn't they bother to actually do any market research? It's as if they just saw android and iOS usage stats, and paniced.

[GohanSSJ]

Ok I really don't get your argument of them being separate, I mean seriously, it makes 0 sense. Mobile devices have changed, now you want to keep those numbers separate? People who used to buy a laptop, now buy a hybrid system, people won't buy a transformer type device and a laptop, so there is absolutely no argument to keep the numbers separate.

You cannot use the Chrome OS and Android argument, because most Android devices are phones, and phones are not a replacement for say a laptop. The only way your comparison would work, is if MS would include WP sales, which they haven't.

MS was the first major company that predicted this would happen, they knew we would be going towards these devices and worked towards that goal, now you are saying they cannot claim sales on those devices as a whole?

In the end you compare products on how you use them, tablets (with or without keyboard) are used as an replacement for laptops, it's MS intention to reduce the usage of laptops in favor of these devices, so yeah your argument is flawed at best.


In the end the news article is flawed, while I do believe their numbers to be correct, that doesn't make their conclusion right. It would be the same if you countered the amount of pick up trucks sold in the US, by comparing them to pick up trucks driven in Manhattan. Obviously the numbers wouldn't match up.

In the end only MS knows how many keys have been activated, but like all companies, they much rather highlight the positive.

[Robert]

Ok I really don't get your argument of them being separate, I mean seriously, it makes 0 sense. Mobile devices have changed, now you want to keep those numbers separate? People who used to buy a laptop, now buy a hybrid system, people won't buy a transformer type device and a laptop, so there is absolutely no argument to keep the numbers separate.

You cannot use the Chrome OS and Android argument, because most Android devices are phones, and phones are not a replacement for say a laptop. The only way your comparison would work, is if MS would include WP sales, which they haven't.

MS was the first major company that predicted this would happen, they knew we would be going towards these devices and worked towards that goal, now you are saying they cannot claim sales on those devices as a whole?

In the end you compare products on how you use them, tablets (with or without keyboard) are used as an replacement for laptops, it's MS intention to reduce the usage of laptops in favor of these devices, so yeah your argument is flawed at best.


In the end the news article is flawed, while I do believe their numbers to be correct, that doesn't make their conclusion right. It would be the same if you countered the amount of pick up trucks sold in the US, by comparing them to pick up trucks driven in Manhattan. Obviously the numbers wouldn't match up.

In the end only MS knows how many keys have been activated, but like all companies, they much rather highlight the positive.

If it uses an ARM processor, it's a mobile device. If it uses a decent Intel processor, it's a PC.

I doubt I will ever replace my laptop with a tablet. Tablets are just shit in comparison. A laptop is a desktop replacement, a tablet is a large mobile phone. MS tried to combine the two, and clearly has failed because consumers don't want it.


It would be more like comparing a new ford pick up truck driven in manhattan in the first 3 months of 2008, to a new version in the first 3 months of 2013. That is really what they are comparing. It's kind of flawed still because of the current financial climate and the increase in competition (not to mention the change in popularity in the website, or demographic etc), but it does give the best overall picture we can get atm. Vista did better than Win8 is doing, and it was widely regarded as a failure. Though to be fair I like Vista more than Win8, at least after the Service Packs started hitting.

[GohanSSJ]

A laptop is also a mobile device. You want to stop counting them as well? Or how about x86 systems, are those so outdated that they don't count anymore?
Don't get me wrong, I get that arm is a different ballpark then x86, but the point stays the same, they are mostly bought as an replacement for a laptop.

Now you might not want to trade that in, you might see them as a large phone, but the simple fact is that the majority doesn't, besides in no way can you see it as a large phone, since you can't put them in your pocket, kinda like laptops.
Aside from that hybrid systems do offer you a laptop, if you look at the Asus Transformer series, they look just like a regular laptop, only you can remove the screen to turn it into a regular tablet.

In the case of MS you really can't compare tablets with phones, unlike Android, WP and W8 are 2 very different systems.

Your comparison of the pick up truck makes no sense. You're simply building on my comparison without grasping the point I was making.

The numbers they use is only from a small portion of the internet, this doesn't reflect how many W8 licenses have been sold at all. On a tech website you will see much higher numbers of non IE use and W7 use compared to say the site of Habbo which is mostly used by kids playing on old Windows XP systems and having no knowledge of other browsers.

W8 sees a different usage then previous versions, early adopters are much more likely to spend a considerable amount of time on FB then on a site like this.
That's how it work, and that's why those numbers don't tell you that much.

[Repthon]

Windows 8 is a tablet OS not for a PC or a laptop and that is what i said the first time i looked at the expo and everyone was like your just talking shit. I am pretty sure Windows 8 was just created because of Microsoft Surface.

[GohanSSJ]

Windows 8 is definitely focused too much on tablets, metro should have been a option basically, the usage a choice, instead of trying to force it down. At the same time the forcing down of metro does quicken the mobile pc market to create hybrid devices.

Windows 8 was thought many years ago, Bill Gates stated years and years ago that the PC market would move towards mobile touch devices, that desktops PC's would no longer be in the homes of most people, or at least not be in a dominate place, but rather get tucked away in a room.
This is what MS wanted all along.

As for the Surface, the Surface was I think created to wake up the hybrid market. Basically most are created by idiots with no imagination, the touch/type cover, the kick stand, the air cooling, the usage of the pen (stylus) and all the ports on it, makes it so much more then most other tablets. So far the best thing that were made was the Asus Transformers, and they just used the simple concept of a keyboard dock with battery, in the end people expect much more of tablets before they are willing to trade in their laptops etc. So instead of waiting for those companies to create proper professional devices, MS did it themselves and are forcing other companies to catch up and incorporate some of their ideas in their own Windows 8 devices.

While MS usually does not create hardware, they have done so when no one else was willing to do it, just to push their own agenda.

[Robert]

A laptop is also a mobile device. You want to stop counting them as well? Or how about x86 systems, are those so outdated that they don't count anymore?
Don't get me wrong, I get that arm is a different ballpark then x86, but the point stays the same, they are mostly bought as an replacement for a laptop.

Now you might not want to trade that in, you might see them as a large phone, but the simple fact is that the majority doesn't, besides in no way can you see it as a large phone, since you can't put them in your pocket, kinda like laptops.
Aside from that hybrid systems do offer you a laptop, if you look at the Asus Transformer series, they look just like a regular laptop, only you can remove the screen to turn it into a regular tablet.

In the case of MS you really can't compare tablets with phones, unlike Android, WP and W8 are 2 very different systems.

Your comparison of the pick up truck makes no sense. You're simply building on my comparison without grasping the point I was making.

The numbers they use is only from a small portion of the internet, this doesn't reflect how many W8 licenses have been sold at all. On a tech website you will see much higher numbers of non IE use and W7 use compared to say the site of Habbo which is mostly used by kids playing on old Windows XP systems and having no knowledge of other browsers.

W8 sees a different usage then previous versions, early adopters are much more likely to spend a considerable amount of time on FB then on a site like this.
That's how it work, and that's why those numbers don't tell you that much.

It's a desktop replacement, or at least mine is! I would say most laptops aren't very mobile, netbooks however are. That is the line for me anyway. Most people use laptops in their homes, or if they need a desktop for work but are on the road and have no other alternative. Ie if you need the power of a desktop, but can't have one. In that, tablets simply aren't a replacement for laptops, they are a replacement of a netbook (which is a shame because I was hoping netbooks would take off and more powerful versions would be made :()

In my comparison, it's the ratio that matters. If you take a road, and count how many cars are going down it and what type they are, then compare it with a year later, you can extrapolate that data to give a good idea of the change. It's not really about how many people overall are using Win8, or used Vista, it's about the people in that large pool of users. You have to do this type of thing when dealing with statistics because its infeasible to census the entire global population. It's quite frankly the entire founding principle in market research.

[MAXTRAXv3]

one word. METRO, there i said it.

[GohanSSJ]

It's a desktop replacement, or at least mine is! I would say most laptops aren't very mobile, netbooks however are. That is the line for me anyway. Most people use laptops in their homes, or if they need a desktop for work but are on the road and have no other alternative. Ie if you need the power of a desktop, but can't have one. In that, tablets simply aren't a replacement for laptops, they are a replacement of a netbook (which is a shame because I was hoping netbooks would take off and more powerful versions would be made :()

In my comparison, it's the ratio that matters. If you take a road, and count how many cars are going down it and what type they are, then compare it with a year later, you can extrapolate that data to give a good idea of the change. It's not really about how many people overall are using Win8, or used Vista, it's about the people in that large pool of users. You have to do this type of thing when dealing with statistics because its infeasible to census the entire global population. It's quite frankly the entire founding principle in market research.

But netbooks replaced a part of the laptop market. Because while many people wanted to bring their PC along, they did not like the size and weight of laptop and thus they moved towards netbooks. Now people are moving from netbooks to tablets/hybrids.

Remember that when Vista was released, we didn't have many netbooks yet, so what you are saying is that although the market has shifted towards new devices, MS is not allowed to count these changes because you do not care for it?

Personally I bought a netbook because aside from my laptop being dated, I didn't like the size of the laptop, now I would happily replace my netbook with the Surface Pro. I'm not the only one, so the way I see it, all Windows 8 sales count.


As for your roads story, it's completely besides my point. My point was that if Ford says that 10% of their cars sold are pick up trucks, that you do not go count Fords in Manhattan and then claim only 3% of them are pick up trucks.
So what you got here is on 1 hand a site that's counting the trucks in Manhattan, while the other is counting the trucks in say Utah.


So like I said, while the numbers of MS doesn't mean much since they are not telling you how many keys have been activated, the numbers of that site doesn't mean much either since there are many variables that makes these numbers incomplete. Like I said, the usage of Windows 8 is different from previous version. And before you go on about that. That website claims the sold copies is not even close to what MS claims, so regardless of whether you think they should not be counted as one, the site does, but still makes conclusions from partial results.

[Robert]

But netbooks replaced a part of the laptop market. Because while many people wanted to bring their PC along, they did not like the size and weight of laptop and thus they moved towards netbooks. Now people are moving from netbooks to tablets/hybrids.

Remember that when Vista was released, we didn't have many netbooks yet, so what you are saying is that although the market has shifted towards new devices, MS is not allowed to count these changes because you do not care for it?

Personally I bought a netbook because aside from my laptop being dated, I didn't like the size of the laptop, now I would happily replace my netbook with the Surface Pro. I'm not the only one, so the way I see it, all Windows 8 sales count.


As for your roads story, it's completely besides my point. My point was that if Ford says that 10% of their cars sold are pick up trucks, that you do not go count Fords in Manhattan and then claim only 3% of them are pick up trucks.
So what you got here is on 1 hand a site that's counting the trucks in Manhattan, while the other is counting the trucks in say Utah.


So like I said, while the numbers of MS doesn't mean much since they are not telling you how many keys have been activated, the numbers of that site doesn't mean much either since there are many variables that makes these numbers incomplete. Like I said, the usage of Windows 8 is different from previous version. And before you go on about that. That website claims the sold copies is not even close to what MS claims, so regardless of whether you think they should not be counted as one, the site does, but still makes conclusions from partial results.

You really need to stop taking this so personally mate. Win8's failure doesn't impact upon you, nor does it really mean it is bad pursay, but there must be a reason for it to have failed which it is doing, no matter how much you try to discredit stats. I have many gadgets from over the years which were fantastic things, but failed for other reasons. It's ok for stuff to fail! As long as you aren't working for the company making the product, anyway!


@roads analogy, afaik we are talking about one website doing all the statistics for that study, so it would be one city not two. Also we are looking at the ratio of uptake of different products over time, not absolutes. Absolutes are impossible to determine, even if they released figures they would probably involve rounding, not to mention stuff like OEM systems bluring the numbers. Plus they would have to release every OSs stats for that comparison to be made, which they simply wouldn't do unless it makes them look good. The point of that study was that most people on that site used Vista in the first few months than Win8, which therefore makes Vista more successful in the first 3 months. Simple as that really, arguing is pointless because you are arguing with a fact. Yes there are limitations with that fact, but limitations are fine if we both know what they are, because every fact has limitations because no one is omniscient.

[Razer]

Robert 1 - Gohan 0.
Kidding, but such long and in-depth posts.. Oo

[GohanSSJ]

Is there a point to your spam?

You really need to stop taking this so personally mate. Win8's failure doesn't impact upon you, nor does it really mean it is bad pursay, but there must be a reason for it to have failed which it is doing, no matter how much you try to discredit stats. I have many gadgets from over the years which were fantastic things, but failed for other reasons. It's ok for stuff to fail! As long as you aren't working for the company making the product, anyway!


@roads analogy, afaik we are talking about one website doing all the statistics for that study, so it would be one city not two. Also we are looking at the ratio of uptake of different products over time, not absolutes. Absolutes are impossible to determine, even if they released figures they would probably involve rounding, not to mention stuff like OEM systems bluring the numbers. Plus they would have to release every OSs stats for that comparison to be made, which they simply wouldn't do unless it makes them look good. The point of that study was that most people on that site used Vista in the first few months than Win8, which therefore makes Vista more successful in the first 3 months. Simple as that really, arguing is pointless because you are arguing with a fact. Yes there are limitations with that fact, but limitations are fine if we both know what they are, because every fact has limitations because no one is omniscient.

Their stats are facts. That doesn't mean they are right about that analysis however.

To use a different example. Say you go to a stripclub every night, every night you count how many male and female visitors enter. After a week you've got all sorts of statistics. You can even broaden it to include estimated age, color of hair, length, weight etc. All of those would be facts and would give you a decent study in who visits those clubs.

Now imagine that the researcher would start to compare those stats to the stats of the town. He would be claiming that the population is for 98% males etc.

Like I said, MS is definitely not a credible source about their sales, because the whole "amount of shipped" is a massive scam, I would understand it if it wasn't for the fact that they can just check the activated keys, so MS obviously doesn't want to release the actual sales numbers. However that doesn't make it the others right. Yes their numbers are likely true, but that doesn't tell you anything yet, aside that the numbers differ a lot.

In the end, you made this topic about Windows 8 failing with a source that backs this up, yet they don't have the numbers of activated keys, and in reality they really don't know how many keys have been activated. Since on top of that the usage of Windows 8 is so different from the usage of previous versions, their numbers mean even less when trying to get to the real number.

You claim I take it personally, yet all I've been down is stating facts why their and also your assumption does not have a strong basis, and you should know that if there are that many variables, that many uncertainties, that you can't completely counter claim something with it.

MS is the only one who knows how many are activated, everything else is a guess at best.


Btw to put 1 point in favour of MS. MS always releases shipped amounts, just like every other copy, because of that their released numbers of Vista were not all sold either, my guess is that they pull the same stunt everytime, so while it's definitely possible that there are more W8's on the shelves than that there were Vista's, chances are that the number of sold copies is pretty close to each other.

Of course, like all of this, these are assumptions and thus I'm not making any claims that they did or did not sell more of 8.