Server system specs

[Allisandre]

Ok, now first off, I'm not some super user here, just have a small handful of us playing on my little server. I'll probably never have more than 20 people logged into it at any given point in time.

My current box is a little Acer Aspire L100. It's not much, but I didn't figure I would need a whole lot for just a few of us. It's got 2GB of ram, a 280GB hard drive, and a Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Dual-Core processor. The only problem I've ever had was the fact that it's cooling system sucks.

But then I notice that loading 3 maps pretty much kills the memory and loading a 4th just crashes the server.

Sooo, I go digging around through my spare parts, and what do you know, I've got a brand new EliteGroup Geforce6100PM-M2 sitting here with a nearly smoking CPU. (At least it was when I got it.) Unfortunately, I need a power supply and more RAM. It's got two slots, but I've only got a couple of 1GB sticks sitting around. I can probably afford 4GB (2x2GB) and maybe even 8GB if I really push my finances. (16GB just isn't going to happen even though the MB supports it because I don't have $1000 to blow on RAM.)

So now my question...
In your experiences, how many maps can you load on X amount of memory?
As is it, I spend half my time tabbing out to change what maps are loaded. It would be nice if this was only an occasional effort, or if it was something I didn't have to do.

(I'm using 343's latest release BTW.)

[MentaL]

[Jacknife]

from what i know to start all caves in 343's release u need 16GB ram but not sure about how much a map uses cause i guess it depends on how much is the cave

[343]

Correct, I recommend NO less than 16GB to run all instances of my release simultaneously, "correctly" anyways...

However, there is a method (that I would HIGHLY recommend AGAINST) in which you MAY be able to run all instances (using a single 'instance' of GS) utilizing much less ram (you may be able to get away with 8GB or even 4GB =X

If you desire to try this method start the maps in this manner from the command line (You can start the whole server from pwAdmin, then just stop the world map, leaving everything else running -- Then use the following command to start all maps):

./gs gs01 gs.conf gmserver.conf gsalias.conf is01 is02 is05 is06 is07 is08 is09 is10 is11 is12 is13 is14 is15 is16 is17 is18 is19 is20 is21 is22 is23 is24 is25 is26 is27 is28 is29 is31 is32 is33 is34 is35 b05 house1 house2 house3 house4 house5 house6 z9 q20 arena04 arena01 arena02 arena03 jail bg01 bg02 bg03 bg04 bg05 bg06 > /PWServer/logs/gs_all.log &

Now if I am not mistaken, the real big downside to this method is, if one map 'crashes' they all come down! As where starting them all separately, if one goes down it doesn't effect the others, but ofc that is what uses so much ram. So you can weigh the pros and cons for yourself

Add: I cannot entirely 'support' the above method; at least not in terms of stability or reliability. I also don't thik 16GB would be no $1000; but ofc that depends on what kind of slots you have. DDR3 is real cheap right now, and even DDR2 is not bad. I have purchased entire server machines with 16GB of ram already for like $100 I'll have to dig up that link now, GREAT machines AND they don't break the bank

Add: here ya go dude, eBay FTW:
http://forum.ragezone.com/f452/found...ml#post6467445
keep your eyes peeled for something like that (look at the last link to the Sun V20Z) and you'll be golden! I know those are long gone (hell I personally bought 3 or 4 of those) but keep lookin and I bet you can find something just as good if not better...

Add: here, I even did some homework for you -- Since I am a 'fan' of that model the current 'cheapest' one on eBay is this one: Sun SunFire V20z 1U Server AMD Opteron 250 2.4GHz CPU 16GB RAM Rack Mount Unit | eBay if you can afford the approximately $260 (I don't think shipping for you will be much different, you're not that far away from me)... You'd have a complete machine with 16GB of ram & a 30 day DOA warr.

[norman1234]

Well u can also load all maps on a 4gig ram make use of swap file memory i can load all the maps under 2 gig ram but with a 4 gig swap
Posted via Mobile Device

[das7002]

Well u can also load all maps on a 4gig ram make use of swap file memory i can load all the maps under 2 gig ram but with a 4 gig swap
Posted via Mobile Device

akjdsnkajsndkjasndjasnkda

Stop telling people that, you aren't supposed to use swap to do that as that isn't what it was designed for >_>

[Drakaer]

With only 20 people max on your server you wont need all maps so perhaps use 343's method to load all of the maps you think you will need for the day. In addition to that I would load another map separate from the rest for making xml edits so if you do a wrong edit you will only crash that map and not all the others.

[343]

*cough*thenextpersonwhomentionsusingswapinsteadofREALramgetspermabannedfromRZ*cough*

[Allisandre]

thanks for the link to the Sun server. I just might go that route when I have the money available. It's the same price as the 8GB ram that I was considering.

I was having real trouble finding DDR2 800Mhz ram sticks in 16GB (2x8GB) configuration for this. If I had 4 slots, it would be super easy, but apparently 8GB sticks are more difficult for the DDR2 dual-channel flavor I have.

For now I may try that string, but limit the number of maps to only those that I'll be using regularly. I would assume that I could manually load/unload the other maps that I required through PWadmin. First I've got to figure out how to tinker with those .jsp files though. I'm familiar with java, but not a pro by any means, and my attempt at adding items to the "Get Items" page failed horribly. Mails just arrived empty.

BTW, I didn't know Linux had a swap file like that >.< I won't try that route anyway, I'll be pushing stability as it is with only loading 4 or 5 of my most commonly used maps.

[343]

thanks for the link to the Sun server. I just might go that route when I have the money available. It's the same price as the 8GB ram that I was considering.

I was having real trouble finding DDR2 800Mhz ram sticks in 16GB (2x8GB) configuration for this. If I had 4 slots, it would be super easy, but apparently 8GB sticks are more difficult for the DDR2 dual-channel flavor I have.

For now I may try that string, but limit the number of maps to only those that I'll be using regularly. I would assume that I could manually load/unload the other maps that I required through PWadmin. First I've got to figure out how to tinker with those .jsp files though. I'm familiar with java, but not a pro by any means, and my attempt at adding items to the "Get Items" page failed horribly. Mails just arrived empty.

BTW, I didn't know Linux had a swap file like that >.< I won't try that route anyway, I'll be pushing stability as it is with only loading 4 or 5 of my most commonly used maps.

No problem, I provide pretty good prices on shit usually. A lot of my friends come to me as their 'sales consultant'. Only downside is some people are absolutely against used or refurbished... Personally IDK why, I am all for used or refurb since you can get such good deals that way... and eBay FTW for sure since you get 'buyer protection' even if they don't mention a 'warranty' (only had to really do this once anyway myself, I've noticed as long as you pay attn to ppls feedback you usually wont have any problems )

If I am not mistaken, using that method to open more than one map will consume the same amount of ram (or really close to it) no matter how many maps you open in that matter, whether it be one map, or 10, or all... So if you do want to 'play around' with that method you may as well open them all... But then manually opening more later on from pwAdmin is going to 'open' another 'instance' of GS, so that will consume more ram as the more you open...

If an item in "get item" or "send mail" fails it is (my guess) that it's going to be one of two things. Number 1) you failed to enter the correct HEX value for the item (if there is one, if not it must be blank "") Number 2) you edited the wrong one ~ with my release there are two separate tomcats -- one for 'you' (the admin) and one for the 'user'/player... If you modify this one:
/opt/apache-tomcat-5.5.28/2/webapps/pwAdmin/addons/ send mail -or- get item this would be the one that only you (the admin) can log into using port 8443 (using pwAdmin)

If you modify the one in:
/opt/apache-tomcat-5.5.28/webapps/Account/Services/ send mail -or- get item this is the one you will get from the 'normal website' (for the 'users'/players to use)

&& yea, I am sooooo not going to rant about swap again; just that yes, swap has it's proper uses -- unfortunately many people seem to think swap means alternative to RAM =\ If you really want to know my stance on this, search the boards for it as I know I have quite bluntly ranted about this in the past as well

add:

Ok, so my rant on swap here:

http://forum.ragezone.com/f452/found...ml#post6539767

Most important part being the ratio:

Spoiler:

TABLE:

PHYSICAL SYSTEM RAM       SWAP CALCULATOR
0 GB ~ 16GB               P*1.00=s
17 GB ~ 255 GB            P*0.50=s
256 GB +                  P*0.25=s

Where:
P = PHYSICAL RAM
* = MULTIPLY
s = MAX swap amount
= = EQUALS

[Allisandre]

oh, I always figure whatever the default for swap is, that's what it should be at. I've tried playing with it before in Windows, and the results ranged from barely-noticeable improvement to slowing the system down.

In this case, I'll let linux do what it does best. Now worries about me playing with swap.

As for the mail codes, I've now lost all the changes I made, but here's a quick example...

{"0", "Select Item", "XML", "Mask", "Proctype", "Stacked", "Max Count", "Expire Date"}
{"23343", "Friendship Crystal", "", "0", "55", "1", "9999", "0"}

So since that seemed to work, I just copied the line, changed the Item ID number and name, then edited the "stacked" and "Max Count" lines.

I only had the friendship crystal to reference, and looking in "items.jsp", I can see now how wrong that was and why it didn't work. Now I'm trying to figure out what I was looking at that only have the one item listed that I copied.

Thank you again, and I really do hope that you do decide to keep working on releases again. I love the work you've done so far.

[Souris]

akjdsnkajsndkjasndjasnkda

Stop telling people that, you aren't supposed to use swap to do that as that isn't what it was designed for >_>

Swap on fast disk (ssd, raid ssd) is perfectly fine and fast enough to do this. If it's cheaper for someone to go this way, why occulting it?

Obviously we're not talking about that laptop's hdd with windows + virtualbox running on it on top of pw server.

[343]

First of all, SSD's are NOT as cheap or cheaper than RAM, so you just kinda lost your argument there alone... Even if they WERE cheaper than RAM, (granted they are faster than traditional platter HDDs) they will still NOT be as FAST as RAM, therefore you still lose your argument because nothing, especially not SWAP, (of any kind on any kind of drive) can compare to real true legit RAM...

[rbb138]

I may be completely wrong here but would the smaller non-debugging version of the GS use less ram?

Not being a C programmer i have no idea how the compiler works, but the text labels in the GS alone account for a fair % of the overall size.

[Souris]

Notice the "if" it's cheaper :)

Most likely buying a 1U server from scrap would be cheaper with 16gb ram and normal HDD than with SSD we'll agree on that. But not everyone starts by investing this kind of money. Some people already have a server or use a home computer.
Swap is used to unload some unused stuff to free ram, in a small server where not all instances are active (have players in) all the time, it works just fine even with raid HDD.

Now if you aim to be a top class server with 1000+ players online, well yes you better invest in a proper ram-stuffed unit. You should actually have 2 and separate your website from game server. Or even 3 and have the databases on the third one.

I was just pointing that to start with a few friends or do a test server, a old laptop with a large swap will do. I actually run a test server on a 1ghz, 600mb ram (2gb swap), 10gb HDD setup, it can load main world + 3-4 maps without problem.

So in my opinion, Allisandre could increase swap to like 10gb. It's free and easy to do. Does it work for the less than 20 people you want online? great you saved money and troubles. Does it lag/crash (that's the worse that can happen)? It's always time to buy more RAM.

[343]

I agree with some parts of your last post, however you're still VERY WRONG about swap!

NEVER increase swap to 10GB if you only have say 2GB, even 8GB of ram... YOU NEVER want to go with ANYTHING higher than a 1:1 ratio Physical Ram:Swap...

Sure, some people just want to 'dick around' with it (a server) ~ or run a 'little' server for them and their friends/family to 'dick around on'; yes sometimes it may be a laptop. There's no problem with using whatever you have or want to, as long as it meets the MINIMUM specs to run the server with at least ONE map (the world map); and as I pointed out there IS a way to start all maps on basically 'one instance' of GS. So; that being said that is much more logical than your illogical and INCORRECT method of incorrectly using swap...

Add:

http://forum.ragezone.com/6539767-post55.html

[Souris]

1) I didn't know/didn't pay attention to that way to load all map at once. It is indeed a better solution than increased swap.

2) I'm not wrong and neither are you. On production server swap shouldn't even be used or swapiness should be really low (most stuff will be "pressing"). But on a small "goofing around" server there is usually 10GB of "idling" stuff for 1GB of "pressing", swap makes sense and won't create problems.

[das7002]

1) I didn't know/didn't pay attention to that way to load all map at once. It is indeed a better solution than increased swap.

2) I'm not wrong and neither are you. On production server swap shouldn't even be used or swapiness should be really low (most stuff will be "pressing"). But on a small "goofing around" server there is usually 10GB of "idling" stuff for 1GB of "pressing", swap makes sense and won't create problems.

See... when you do this you end up forcing the OS to put programs that are running into swap if they aren't doing all that much. Which means in order for them to do anything they have to be taken out of swap, and if their is no other RAM available it has to make decisions about what it needs to shuffle around. When it finally gets it into RAM then the CPU can execute things (CPU can only execute and read from RAM)

Swap was designed to put things that are truly not being used (as in they are running but not using CPU and haven't gotten a user request in a while) at all there to give the appearance of more free RAM. (when it is needed, as in program X hasn't done anything in a while but is hoarding a lot of memory. program Y has been requested to start and needs that memory) Trying to use swap as actual RAM is just utter stupidity. (and if you somehow have 10GB of sleeping processes you are doing something wrong)

[Allisandre]

LOL I'm just going to leave the swap alone. I'm sure Linux figured out what to make it when I installed it, and from what I've read, the default is a 1:1 ratio.

I'm curious about that string though, I'd like to tinker with it, but is there any way to not have to type it all out every time?

I thought I'd try doing a "nano mapload.sh", typing it all out there and putting it in the same directory as start.sh and stop.sh. If I haven't mentioned it, I'm a bit of a noob with the command line, but it makes sense to me that this would work.

I think it would be cool if I could put the pause in, like you've got in the installer 343, that would warn me to turn off all the maps before continuing.

I'll have to take a look at those files and see if I can find anything useful.

Please let me know if this won't work. I'd hate to fry my system again.

[343]

Sure, just use this after running start.sh

[343]

Then you wont have to start anything from pwAdmin. start.sh (original) will start MySQL Apache and both TOMCATs, like normal, then startPW.sh will start full PW server including all maps...

[Allisandre]

well that was fun =P I'll just need a new system to load all the maps. It started throwing errors that things had been waiting for more than 120 seconds. after a minute or two the system just locked up. (Does that when it gets hot and the shell doesn't notice in time to shut down.)

If I remove some of the maps I'm not using, (like houses ect.) will I be able to manually load them later if I want?

[343]

You can try starting less maps, it may help... I would say NOT to start them after running that command. I would say stop them all and restart all the ones you want open using that method / command of opening more than one map on one GS... Because; if you open say 5 maps using that method, then you decide well now you want 2 more well now you're using at least 2 'instances' of GS, which is really gonna suck up ram!

[Zorno]

Hmm. That specs thingy is pretty useless because it depends on some more config than just RAM and CPU i guess. Why i say that is because we had the server running on a v-server hosted by strato ( 8 GB Ram ) and all was fine. Now we switched to gigahosting and now we need 12 GB ram with exactly the same config like before ( there are less players than before, all other things are the same ).

[rbb138]

I see nobody really knows whether my suggestion would work lol.

[343]

I may be completely wrong here but would the smaller non-debugging version of the GS use less ram?

Not being a C programmer i have no idea how the compiler works, but the text labels in the GS alone account for a fair % of the overall size.

I see nobody really knows whether my suggestion would work lol.

Honestly, yea; I have no clue if that would work. I don't even have a copy of said 'smaller non-debugging version of GS'

Tell me where to get it, or share it and I'll test...