The General, Sirius and the community [discussion]

[Emily]

Since @The General his thread went off-topic a lot (and yes, I went off-topic too), I decided to create this thread so we can all discuss things here. Keep in mind, this is not to hate on each other and call names, but to have a discussion as adults.

I think it's best for me to clear stuff up first:

1. I don't defend The General, nor do I hate him. He's a person who did wrong to me in the past, but the past is the past. He doesn't do wrong to me now, so I don't hate him, nor am I his best friend.
2. I don't agree with all his choices, but I don't disagree with all his choices either.
3. Don't say stuff based on what you think; if something is the case, show ACTUAL proof.
4. Listen to what people have to say and respect their opinion.

A few posts from the thread by me:

I'm getting tired of this community. People complain about choices developers make. They want all the features, they want it all open-source and everything needs to be like they want.
If they want that, start learning a programming language and do it yourself. Then you have the source, you can make it however you want and you don't have to complain.
But the worst part is this community profiting from other developer. Worst part is when they take a CMS, EMU, make it look like they made it and then put a hotel online earning a lot of money by doing nothing.

If people don't like this project, don't reply here. I'm getting tired of all children complaining here. Grow up. Not everything goes the way you want it to go, and a developer can do whatever he or she wants and there's nothing you can do about it.
(anyways, I'm waiting for the dislikes from all triggered people, but this is getting really annoying).



Nothing wrong with his code. And for people who complain about back-doors; show proof of dangerous back-doors. And if you don't do anything wrong, back-doors wouldn't be abused anyways.

First, I'm not here to attack somebody or defend somebody. I'm not agreeing with everything The General does, nor do I like him nor is he my friend. Just be straight on that.
Keep in mind, if something is closed source, you're not supposed to get anything from the code. A software developer can change whether a project is open source or not whenever he likes. And only the code from the open source version can be used. NONE from the closed source. Meaning if Morningstar uses code from the closed source version, The General has ANY right to be pissed off about it since the closed source code shouldn't be for the public (which by adding it to the open source version is done).

I'm sure that he does that with dicks. And I'm sure it isn't without reason. The problem is when it happens people think it's without reason and then they start pissing the developer off. I'm sure if that didn't happen nothing would be leaked. Also, there's NO proof that it's somebody ELSE their IP, it could even be yours or an IP of something else. And I'm sure if you're a dick to him it could be yours as well. Try come up with better proof than a message with an IP without any context.

Your C++ moaning is stupid. C++ is a very powerful language and in some cases can be faster and better. It's easy when you dislike somebody to assume he's using it to get hardware ID information. Also keep in mind, if he really does leak a lot, why not sue him? I'm pretty sure it's illegal to just get IPs and hardware information and leak them without permission. The only reason why you wouldn't sue him is:

1. You know there's not enough proof
2. You know you wouldn't win

I've told enough; I'm not defending him but I'm getting tired of some people here. Again; if closed source projects are something to complain about, then DO NOT USE IT and make something yourself.

Once again, have respect, listen and don't come up with bullshit. And keep this stuff out of his thread from now on. Thanks.

[MentaL]

[Bradley]

If that's where you prefer to be classified under however don't take me for someone who was taking any side as I was merely stating the fact that there's no official solidified evidence on whether you're even guilty or innocent; although this Is true I was simply stating that no one can prove anything till It's been showed with solid concrete evidence.

In whatever way It turns, I for sure wish the best to both sides regarding this problematic situation and hopefully that It will be taken elsewhere so It doesn't rubber band the development notices elsewhere leading this to be completely off-topic as I'm sure a staff member or someone will actually pick up on this soon to clear it up & never the less to deal with it.

So don't be claiming "I'm the bad guy because they said" - card as this is just being blatantly ridiculous and childish in every manner.

In the overall standards of this mess, I will be for sure taking the points placed forwards by @Emily.

That's all as I won't be replying to this anymore since it's not necessary and that I'd assume that I've justified my view and opinion pretty clearly without any fault hopefully.

Thanks.

I would like to involve this as reasoning to addition towards this thread and circumstance in general to back up the fact that there's no visible evidence currently but use of words and talk to prove that either party is correct or incorrect.

[The General]

Facts:
- Arcturus has been stolen without my permission.
- Arcturus has been decompiled without my permission.
- Arcturus has been renamed without my permission.
- Arcturus source has been rehosted without my permission.

There is NO single argument that can make those facts right.

Period.

There is no reason for such a thread as this. There is no point argueing who is right or wrong. These are the facts, nothing makes them right. And if you think any of the above is fine and okay to do that makes you a dick, in my eyes and equally accountable for the current situation.

/End

[Emily]

Facts:
- Arcturus has been stolen without my permission.
- Arcturus has been decompiled without my permission.
- Arcturus has been renamed without my permission.
- Arcturus source has been rehosted without my permission.

There is NO single argument that can make those facts right.

Period.

There is no reason for such a thread as this. There is no point argueing who is right or wrong. These are the facts, nothing makes them right. And if you think any of the above is fine and okay to do that makes you a dick, in my eyes and equally accountable for the current situation.

/End

I created this thread because the discussion was getting out of hand in your thread. This still is a forum, so people can still discuss and add their opinion. I just don't want it in your development thread as a 99% hate thread isn't what a development thread is supposed to be.

[Shoelace]

Thank you for creating this thread @Emily

Just keep it civil, you all are apart of the same community at the end of the day so even if you don't like each other, treat each other with respect

[Joopie]

It's sad that people in general, not just this community, needs to have things they can't have for w.e. reason. Even if it's by doing something illegal. We all seen and do it, for example download a movie, steal from shops, rob some people's wallets, crack games and host private servers. This entire community is build upon the fact we don't want to pay for stupid e-furniture.
Relating this to The General and his emulator is just people being too weak, disrespectful and selfish. They can't have the source and do w.e. it takes to get it anyway, it happened with Phoenix too and all the other emulators out there. It got leaked eventually.
Some even say that because we already rip off of Sulake it's oke to also do it for other Habbo related things. In my opinion they're all just wrong. Stealing is stealing, even if the tool to allow you to steal has been stolen is stealing.
The part that I'm the most saddest about is the fact people in this community try to screw each other over. Just why... We all share a common goal, to emulate Habbo, our favorite game we don't wish to support (lol). But no, let's do a free-for-all instead.
Again it's sad, grow up, do something better for someone else, help the world become a better place.

[Gaby]

I haven't followed this drama, but I do want to reply to this.

The Habbo community is not as thriving and active as it once was, in fact almost every development has seized. Releases have almost completely stopped. The existence of tutorials about basic retro knowledge is being pushed from the first couple of pages. In other words, the Habbo section is becoming more dead by the year.

We need to respect the developments like Wesley's that are still active, the fact he still puts energy in this project and has done for a couple of years now is outstanding. I am a fan of open source and personally I wouldn't trust a closed source emulator, but we shouldn't start fighting amongst ourselves about small things like this. A lot of people are happy with his closed source emulator.

The community should change from the back stabbing leak-driven community it once was, to developers working together to create something better than Habbo will ever be.

[Biesmen]

Make sure to keep this thread away from personal attacks to anyone, including The General. The Habbo Hotel section rules and global forum rules still apply. This thread is heavily moderated.

[Emily]

Make sure to keep this thread away from personal attacks to anyone, including The General. The Habbo Hotel section rules and global forum rules still apply. This thread is heavily moderated.

Good to see. Of course, I already mentioned opinions are good to share; as long as people keep it respectful. I'll make sure whenever I see somebody attack somebody else I'll report it straight away.

[R3tr0ssuccio]

I just want to tell that everyone is free to think whatever he wants and do things that are LIMITED and not everything he got in his mind. I think that if someone asks for having something opensource, doesn't deserve to be attacked or considered bad.
We are humans and we are different. I think that something needs to be open source and at the same time something needs to be closed source. I dont like when someone comments or judges what you do. I do something for money while you do it for free? I got no problem and you should not have. We are free. This is not an attack to someone, im justing explain what I think about talking and arguing in general. Sorry for my Bad English; I tried to explain in the best way I can. If something isnt clear, ask me and I explain it in a different way. No offence for anyone. Happy holidays.

[LeChris]

I disagree with respecting closed source projects, historically they have been a great point of turmoil in this community.

Butterfly made elitist hotels that would boot those not using it, while also paying for a under-developed emulator for a promise of "stability." (I doubt it was more stable, the hotels just had more money to throw into servers)

Phoenix made an entire generation of stagnant development in this community by not allowing custom features, passing minimal bug fixes and updates while generating so much money Sulake had to sue him.

And repeat from Leon and others who work for profit.

The majority of users in this scene either are very young and in school, or are poor and just starting their career off. It is horrible to try to spin any development advertised for people to use into anything for profit. If you want to help this scene, the only way to do that is to provide open source high quality code and consistently push updates to it.

The scene is toxic from the random wannabe hackers, script kiddies and developers. But there are plenty of people who would still be thankful and happy you contributed so pay mind to those, because those people are what the community is about. Playing a game you love and enjoying being able to make it your own. It's not about profit, reputation or anything like that.

Historically, I've been awful with doing developments for the reputation from it instead of enjoyment. I am trying to reverse that now and provide stuff everyone can use regardless of experience, but it is a thing I suffered from. What I have never done is tried spinning a "public development" into a source of income. I will do private paid work for a small amount of hotels from time to time, but all of my work in this scene is open source.

TLDR: I probably ranted and it makes no sense. If you want to work in this scene, do it for the love of it not for the money. You can make more cash clocking in at a burger stand for a hour than you will in years of begging for scraps on here. There are bad people in this scene and good people. Just associate with the good and ignore the bad for a better experience.

Phoenix, Arcturus, Cyclone and Comet are all points of failure based on the same thing. They didn't accept community input and went for a for-profit model.

[The General]

I disagree with respecting closed source projects, historically they have been a great point of turmoil in this community.

Because people like you cannot have any respect for other peoples work.

Butterfly made elitist hotels that would boot those not using it, while also paying for a under-developed emulator for a promise of "stability." (I doubt it was more stable, the hotels just had more money to throw into servers)

Dont generalize what one person did. Just because one person does it does not mean other people do it. Mr J boots people too. So don't be a hypocrite. http://arcturus.pw/mirrors/hypocrisy/oliver_1.png

Phoenix made an entire generation of stagnant development in this community by not allowing custom features, passing minimal bug fixes and updates while generating so much money Sulake had to sue him.

Dont blame one person. People were still free to build their own emulator. You can still do that. But instead insist on stealing & leeching because you're too lazy to put in the effort.
People were working on other emulators. Check the development section.
Regarding Arcturus; its free to use. There is no profit incentive.

And repeat from Leon and others who work for profit.

Then call people out on that crappy behavior. But don't be so hypocrite you call people out on making money from emulators yet you're okay with stealing free to use software.
People who run hotels make money. I dont see you complaining about that, sounds like you're just jealous Leon made money, wether it was by scamming or not I leave that in the middle. If you want to make money, build your own emulator from scratch and license it out.

The majority of users in this scene either are very young and in school, or are poor and just starting their career off. It is horrible to try to spin any development advertised for people to use into anything for profit.

Majority of people here just want a private hotel to play on so they dont have to pay for credits. Some people however like to run a hotel for profit.

[qupte]If you want to help this scene, the only way to do that is to provide open source high quality code and consistently push updates to it. [/quote]
That was tried, multiple times (Azure, Butterfly, bcstorm, Silverwave, gold tree etc etc). Did not work. Why would open source be an hard requirement to be succesful? Arcturus does provide the option to extend functionality unlike Phoenix. You can write plugins and if an API change is requested I will consider adding it if there is no other way to make a solution for a feature someone wants to implement through the API.

The scene is toxic from the random wannabe hackers, script kiddies and developers.

Including people who leech, steal, post hateful comments, call names, dox me, hack me, do false reports to discord etc.
Look at yourself first before pointing fingers to other people.,

But there are plenty of people who would still be thankful and happy you contributed so pay mind to those,

Which isn't you because Mr. I want opensource seems to be quite hatefull in that regards.

It's not about profit, reputation or anything like that.

Then why do you insist I open source my work? You just want a provide staircase to fame or something.

Historically, I've been awful with doing developments for the reputation from it instead of enjoyment. I am trying to reverse that now and provide stuff everyone can use regardless of experience, but it is a thing I suffered from.

Nobody but yourself cares about open source devs. If the author is reputable, and is known to be trusted, there is no issue with using closed source software. There has never been an incentive to make Arcturus for profit and it will always be for free. People are free to use any other emulator that isnt based off my work.

[quote[What I have never done is tried spinning a "public development" into a source of income. I will do private paid work for a small amount of hotels from time to time, but all of my work in this scene is open source. [/quote]
Get a job. Pays more.

TLDR: I probably ranted and it makes no sense. If you want to work in this scene, do it for the love of it not for the money. You can make more cash clocking in at a burger stand for a hour than you will in years of begging for scraps on here. There are bad people in this scene and good people. Just associate with the good and ignore the bad for a better experience.

Phoenix, Arcturus, Cyclone and Comet are all points of failure based on the same thing. They didn't accept community input and went for a for-profit model.

Dont generalize. Arcturus is not for profit. Has never been. There has NEVER been any paid licenses or whatever. The donation system was just something to give people a small token of appreciation in return for a donation, just like how Patreon works.
Phoenix had no competition so Aaron did whatever he did to milk it while he could. It bit him in the ass and he paid the price for that. Anyone could have picked up competition to his work but nobody made consistent quality updates.

But yeah lets steal other peoples work and do provide comunnity input because that doesnt make you a toxic person because your own open source should be respect more than the authors decision /s

Accept that Arcturus is closed source, if you cannot do that then you are equally selfish and toxic as the people you dislike. Use a different emulator that has been released by the authors as Open source, or dont be a lazy leech and put your own time into something which is much more rewarding.

And if you need money, get a job, just keep in mind that they dont allow you to leech on other peoples work.

If you want a healthy community, start healthy competition. Stealing and renaming other peoples work isnt a way to create that, you'll just dig your own grave because people see how bad of a person you are.

Keep in mind, I didnt start anything of this. This whole drama bullshit is because other people cannot stand not having what isnt theirs because they are too lazy and too toxic to put in their own effort to make something that is theirs.

If you really really really really really believe opensource is better, then thats fine. Proof it. Start your own open source project that isnt based on stolen work. But that has been tried, countless times. And countless times it died before it got even to a stable release.

[LeChris]

See above.

What an overly hateful response.

To clear up a few points:
1. I don't use Arcturus nor Morningstar or any emulator. I only build CMS' for fun once or twice a year for retros. Therefore, you're already starting this essay off wrong by accusing me of not respecting your work. I can't respect what I don't use, but I can call out the bad behavior you exhibited.

2. I have a job as a Software Engineer making more than enough. I do paid work only for people I'm friends with in this scene (time is still money) or people wanting premium solutions. I don't do private work for free and neither do you. So your get a job remark is not only hilariously flawed but also can be applied towards yourself. How hypocritical of you lmao.

3. Arcturus is for profit as it has for-profit tiers of licenses even reaching into hundreds - thousands of dollars. The Krews discord is filled with your largest donors, so it seems the for profit users you had have abandoned and went to a different platform because you can't satisfy them. Do not call Arcturus free because the premium users dropped you, you just had your hand forced to behave.

4. I agree Arcturus is closed source. But who cares? Instead of spending all of your time chasing people "abusing" your license, quit trying to apply proper legalities to an illegal project. Arcturus is worthless without copyrighted assets, algorithms and so forth. If you take away Sulake's private work your left with a mess of Java and god classes.

5. "If you want a healthy community, start healthy competition. Stealing and renaming other peoples work isnt a way to create that, you'll just dig your own grave because people see how bad of a person you are." Hopefully that's not a throw at me. I been an open source developer making everything from scratch since day one. I have a few edits of Rev themes in 2011 when I was 10 years old, so apologies for that! If you can find any other people with Vue/Node stacks in the scene that predate Heroic feel free to send it my way. My work is custom. If it's an attack at John, so be it. John isn't a developer, he is just someone trying to help shift the retro scene back into it's prime by any means necessary. Love him or hate him, Krews has productive developments coming from it.

6. Open source isn't magically better. That's the fallacy you keep trying to push on people is that if it's not immediately and noticeably better it's not worth it. Open source is so the future communities can learn from what the earlier generations did, learn from their mistakes and grow the project. Arcturus stale mated for close to a year on bug fixes and if it was open source, the many other Java developers could of helped maintain and build on it while you were feeling yourself. Instead people who invested thousands had an unstable product and were forced to find something better.

The community is built around abusing copyright laws, take that away and we lose everything. It's pathetic to try introducing closed source software to a community of developers.

In my eyes, Plus is a success. It lasted many years beyond its initial leak and has had many big updates. The scene won't have a massive Github with thousands of commits, but the more talented developers will be able to contribute which is the sole point of open source here.

Now take a shot and enjoy 2020 with ease. It's a game and not a courthouse.

[dominic]

If you really really really really really believe opensource is better, then thats fine. Proof it. Start your own open source project that isnt based on stolen work. But that has been tried, countless times. And countless times it died before it got even to a stable release.

you know, the funny thing is that when people called you out for stealing code, you closed sourced your application.

[Beny.]

The donation system was just something to give people a small token of appreciation in return for a donation, just like how Patreon works.

You make me laugh. Don't lie to yourself. You were selling additional features on your Emulator and blocking other people from creating free plugins for them features.